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Good morning! Windows Phone Radio 21 went live late last night here in the Pacific time zone, and we have a couple great guests on the show this week. First, Eric Hautala sat down with me and Greg Sullivan to talk about his recent post on the upcoming update. Later in the show, Megan West from the Zune Marketplace team drops in to talk about SXSW in Austin, TX and calls out some of the bands and music to keep an eye and ear out for. We featured a couple apps this week including Bubble Birds and Local Concerts. Download in Zune Marketplace, iTunes or from the Web here.
wow! Y'all can come up with a dozen different ways (in both print and spoken word) to carefully word the fact that carriers can block updates without actually using the word "block" every attempt at further explaining the situation you do get just a little bit closer to coming out and saying it. Maybe 3 months after mango is RTM and not showing up on anyones handsets y'all will finally come out and say that "yes! carriers can block updates! and its great and exciting and really driving our platform!" i would LOVE to recomend the phone to friends and family but can't since so far I have seen ZERO support from the company who ships it. Evidenced by the bugs on the device and that it is sitting at "7.0" and is "up to date." Hopefully y'all will update this as swiftly as zune because you are sure to catch the competition at that rate! After more than 5 years of heavily investing in the "microsoft consumer solution" its about time to throw in the towel and realize I bet on the wrong horse. I mean the number one PC manufacturer in the world (HP) has no faith in y'all (WebOS on phones, tablets and PCs) so why should I? Goodbye Windows, Xbox, Zune, and Windows Phone! It was an incredibly abusive relationship! Oh wait im locked into a 2 year contract and spending a small fortune on a cell plan for a semi-smart phone (by 2011s standards) that doesn't get updates. Glad I dodged the update bullet and didn't go Android (oh wait!). So I guess y'all have two more years to kick me around. Looking forward to the good times!
More excuses. This is pathetic...I'm on the verge of selling my phone and buying an Android or an iPhone. This Eric guy is just an excuse factory. Where is the apology to the users?
By the way, I'm TIRED of hearing about the "great stuff to come." We can't be excited about future features when you cannot even provide proper support and bug fixes. I can't believe how badly Microsoft has failed with WP7.
At 6:59, someone states "folks don't ship new smartphone Operating System software without the carriers being involved..." While anyone would fully expect NEW Operating Systems to be tested on a carriers network to validate compatibility and operability, pre-NoDo and NoDo themselves are NOT NEW Operating Systems. They are patches to the existing WP7 build, only incrimenting the Minor Version number. So, why does a Mobile Operator NEED to test patches when they in essence shouldn't be bringing any mobile network changes? I understand OEM's need to provide some additions or changes to the OS source for their part.
Again, we are talking about updates here, not new Operating Systems (i.e. WP8, IF it ships in the future.) Eric says in the Podcast "there is room for improvement." He's absolutely right there is. Take back control of the OS updates, just like you do with all of your other software (Windows 7, Windows Server, SQL, Exchange, SharePoint, Office, Xbox, etc.) MS just seems like they haven't figured out how to properly handle updates for their mobile platform. It's a shame, because I love Metro and WP7 design. Why do you make it so hard for me to like your product?
Wow you people (commentors) nitpick at every line....
The truth is, the moment the update is released you all will suddenly shut up. You're claiming you're going to sell the phone for android/iphone... sure sure
It won't speed up the process Microsoft has in place for getting this out to our phones.
Just think before you comment. They ARE aware of the problems, no need to beat a dead horse
Vigor, it's not about the update, it's about Microsoft's handling of it. I am serious about getting rid of this phone if they cannot provide any decent customer service. Why stick with a product that has almost NO support? I am willing to cut MS some slack if they can deal with future updates and/or issues more efficiently, but I'm personally upset with all the self-congratulating that they do instead of just saying "We kind of messed this one up. Sorry, we'll be more open with our customers in the future."
I totally understand that they are aware of the issues, it's their lack of decent communication and support that has people angry.
Vigor, I pointed out a specific phrase one of the broadcasters mentioned in the podcast, and I specifically wanted to call it out as rubbish. If you really read the comments, it's not so much the lack of releaseing the update (although it certainly is an issue with a lot consumers including myself) it's the lack of consistant messaging, all the way from Ballmer, to Joe B, to Eric Hautala, to the podcasters here. There are a vast majority of WP7 advocates that have paid VERY close attention to the CES, WMC, MIX broadcasts of keynote and content sessions, along with interviews, that have different explinations or phrases when it comes to talking about updates, update cycles, and the process.
I was "sort of" glad that Eric came out to talk about the updates and their delays. The major problem here is that honestly no carrier should control PATCHES to the mobile OS. As one user pointed out from a Joe B interview, he stated that "carriers have the ability to block updates, but should roll it out on the next update." Great. What about bugs within the OS (the Marketplace bug is quite visible and easy to reference), yet we as consumers have to wait for the carrier to test that update before rolling it out to consumers? That just doesn't make sense. Sure, if there is a fix or patch that affects cellular connectivity (which honestly should be done with the OEM and their drivers) I understand why carriers would want to test before allowing it on their network.
Why should a carrier force OS manufacturers to test an update prior to its release, when that practice doesn't exist on my desktop OS?!?! That logic fails to make sense to me and a lot of other smart, intelligent consumers.
Again, I really want WP7 to succeed. I bought into Microsoft's Ecosytem of solutions (i use Windows 7 Ultimate, Office 2010, Visual Studio 2010, Xbox 360, Zune, Windows Live Services [Hotmail, Live Messanger, Skydrive]), so naturally I want WP7 to be part of that ecosystem.
I totally agree with the other users. you are totally pissing off the core user base, not good!
Enough of the damn excuses. MS cant even get a pre update right and you are telling us of great future updates.. listen to paul thurott this week on twiw episode 199 http://bit.ly/hIEGUH and he also tired of the BS coming from ms..Hes the reason i bought a wp7, now he even thinking ms wont be able to keep up..
Word of mouth marketing is the cheapest and most effective. We are the hardcore users that will sell more phones for MS than any TV ad. The info Eric gave is great for the average user or someone new to smart phones. Most of us on the blog are long time users of MS moble products. Till the day WP7 can out I was still telling people that 6.5 was better than the iphone. I still believe it is. WP7 can be so great. Please just give us the details not a bunch of spin.
@Vigor - "The truth is, the moment the update is released you all will suddenly shut up" - IF and only IF they actually communicate things that are fixed or improved in the update...besides copy/paste, marketplace search, and faster apps startup/resume. Otherwise you'll see a lot more of the same as their has been ZERO communication on real nitty gritty problems with the platform and the phones...these are well documented
Also I love how I have to change my post 3-4 times to remove real problems with the platform before it will actually post...something is censoring our responses, and obviously not based on language or tone, but on calling things out and bringing up the name of people at MS who have actually run a successful engineering group.
What we need to keep in mind is that these guys are not in charge of the updates. I just met Matt this weekend when I delivered a pizza to him and he was quite down to earth and a good tipper ;) The update issues with the phones IS frustrating and annoying, but no one at MS wants you to have a bad experience with there products, that is just silly.
If you are thinking about going to Android, let me remind you that you will not have a better upgrade experience there, and most likely it will be worse. I have a Samsung Captivate, and trust me, nothing could be more disappointing than waiting in silence for its long overdue update that came months later than expected.
After no updates with PalmOS, slow updates from Windows Mobile, Confusingly staggered updates from WebOS, and a fragmented skinned hell of chaos in the Android world, I have realized that no one has got it right, and MS is going to have some growing pains of there own.
@En3rQi - I would tend to agree, but for god's sake man, they need to start communicating, not giving us cans of fluff. One of the reason Windows 7 is loved, and I believe IE9 will be for developers is there engineering blogs and interaction with the community. I'll never forget Sinopsky mentioning in a blog that they overlooked not including the ability to mount an iso image. A minor detail, but obviously something he thought they should have thought of soon so it could have been included in the final release. That to me said it all, and why everyone I know loves that product!
@ Vigor you fail to realize the situation. most of us do not care about copy and paste. we do not care about a particular feature. b/c honestly nodo means nothing to me. but if they continue this behavior the platform is doomed. they came out behind the competition and the only way to catch up is rapid updates. NOT bi-annual updatesb that dontr ever get delivered. they are moving at snail speed. most of us are upset becuase we are just dumbfounded that MS would shoot themselves in the foot so intentionally.
I'd LOVE to be able to subscribe via the Zune Market place but for some stupid ass reason the Zune team doesn't think anyone outside the US would use the podcast marketplace in zune and forces us to manually subscribe to things, complete BS when every other feature is available here tbh.
what is the purpose of the marketing team for windows phone? You pay an agency to do your creative, which is still unable to resonate with users. You can't communicate with your followers. We just spent half of the time talking about the history of SXSW and what music will be there? You should all be fired for interfering with this products ability to be successful. I'm done trying to listen here.
Gerald makes a brilliant point. I wanted to listen to Windows Phone Radio to find out new information about Windows Phone, not SXSW. I have come to the conclusion that Microsoft, in general, will always suck at communicating with it's customers and followers. People are loading up this blog with comments, questions, and concerns, and has the WP team replied to more than three or four of them?
Every post/podcast seems pre-planned and vague, and it never feels as if any user concerns are truly being addressed. It's more of a "here's some vague info, now shut up" kind of thing.
Either Microsoft doesn't care about its customers and just thinks the phone will sell because it's made my MS, or they are completely and utterly delusional.
@xchamox - it's not all of MS, just the Windows Phone Vista folks...IE Blog and the Engineering Windows 7 blogs are and were excellent. Once we get a peak at Windows 8, and IE 10, I expect much of the same.
great pod cast this week... how do i connect with some of the WP& folks who are here at SXSW i recently moved to Austin... Thanks
My two cents: this was far and away the worst episode yet. The first interview was simply more corporate speak from a MS employee, of which I believe roughly 40% to be true. The second was a music / Zune related interview. I get that Zune is part of WP7 but is simply filler until they do something, anything, right with this phone. My wife has the Samsung Focus and I would love to get one when my contract is up. However, I will not until MS shows some improvements.
P.S. I don't care too much about the failed update- call it a learning experience. But I do care that the platform is months behind schedule and consumers have seen only further delays coupled with more excuses.
My open letter to MS re: WP7 (with user experience to-date): http://tinyurl.com/5ww49bf
@Strider_Auz I would add a touch of pessimism in the shadow of Zune, tablets and Kin failures. Otherwise, well said.
@brandonlpierce. I agree 100% ep. 21 is the worst. Nothing but a ton of hot air.
I think it's sad, I'm sure a lot of these guys/gals are young engineers, hard working, and really do care, but I'd bet my left arm they are being led by a lot of incompetance at the mid to upper management levels.
Zune may have been a failure, but it is an excellent product...Zune desktop software is awesome, and the devices really are nice. Incorporating people from the Vista team that Sinopsky didn't want around was probably the big mistake, especially for such an important project. I have a feeling that mangement is sinking this boat!
@Vigor - we're not nitpicking. WORDS MEAN THINGS, and many of us are noticing just how blatantly the specific choice at nuance the Microsoft folks are executing. You see, in an era where people get away with ridiculous tricks like "it depends on what the meaning of 'is' is", we are keenly aware the people do what they can to protect their image or that of their company. We want the truth, period. If you couldn't catch the theme, here, we want comprehensive info. It's not rocket science. And if you think that we're goint to "shut up" after getting an update, you couldn't be more wrong. Sure, maybe SOME will be placated by being thrown a bone. The rest of us will still be left asking the question "why did an update ready in Dec/Jan take this long?", not to mention the question "why refuse to send out smaller updates more quickly?" I study and understand processes all too well. The process M$ has here is badly broken. The pretense that they are trying to make sure we have a consistent "user experience" misses an important point: PART OF THE USER EXPERIENCE IS THE SUPPORT AND UPDATES. They aren't listening to the whole voice of the customer---only to certain parts of the voices, the ones that are convenient.
BTW, @cmwind, many of us DO care VERY much about copy & paste. I find there are way too many things I simply cannot accomplish without it. I use my device for business, not just pleasure.
Nothing but excuses.. This thing has been delayed since January.. regardless of your PR BS... you have failed your userbase miserably.
The carriers are dragging this platform to its death.. just like the KIN - unless you wake up and shed the dead weight this product will fail!!
You have pissed off your core user base by treating them like bunch of ignorant children; you lie to them about the fact you are getting screwed by your so called 'partners' and you expect them to wait for magical software you may never be able to deliver in a timely fashion.. Everyone that has the phone is FED UP with the update lies and carrier involvement and will no longer recommend the phone to their friends .. simply because they don't want to look stupid by telling them this will be great while you fail to deliver.
While I think your last line is accurate, I wouldn't go so far as to say EVERYone is fed up. And, to be fair, even many of us who are fed up aren't quite ready to jump ship. Personally, I just want to keep adding my voice to those trying to help wake M$ up and get them to put things on track. I do NOT want to see WP7 go away. I hate Android and iOS more than I can express, even given some of their strengths, and contrary to the idea that WP7 is only for the "new to the smartphone crowd", I happen to think it COULD go head to head with the other two if M$ actually would pay attention to the points a lot of us are making. It's just that I remain confinced that they are doing everything wrong when it comes to moving this platform forward.
yeah so in a moment of passionate venting.. I've said Everyone.. oops.. I mean pretty much everyone I know personally who owns the phone. We're all just tired of being jerked around by PR double speak.
I love this platform and its potential I'm just mad they are completely squandering something special. I have no intention of jumping ship at least until my contract is up at which point if this isn't resolved to my satisfaction well what's the point then...
As of right now I simply can not recommend the phone to anyone else without hesitation. I have to inform them about the update issues and carrier blocking and the feature short comings and when I'm asked when they will be resolved all I can tell them is nobody knows. MS could have a completed update for months and we can't get it because of the BS of carrier involvement, simply stop making excuses for the so called partners that are making MS look like a bunch of incompetent fools!
Exactly my feelings..
@GBK - Yeah that's a good article. Look bottom line...NoDo comes out and is 3 month old code, doesn't fix much but adds a few things, ok that will hold some users over for a month, but us enthusiasts still won't be able to recommend the phone nor will the carriers. If that's the last update till winter 2011 at best this platform is dead. If they think they can address the 100's of things this platform needs to get up to speed with just WM 6.5 and take their time to deliver them possibly near the end of 2011, possibly 2012...they might as well give up now and stop wasting resources developing for this phone, because it's GAME OVER. Concentrate on moving all the services to Android and iOS. Look at how well the iPad 2 is selling, they are about to lose there as well. Seriously thinking of selling my MS stock off, because while they may have great things in 2012, it's going to be too little too late for them in the consumer market.
@dkb1898 it's too early for game over.. MS has resources to make it happen this year.. that is if they kick the carrier blocking thing out the door. Seriously.. they should also release smaller updates more frequently..
@GBK - Resources won't matter, even if they are able to buy RIM, they no longer have a consumer brand that commands respect in this space. Pretty soon they need to cut their loses, and start deploying Office, XBox, IE, Live, Zune, etc... to other mobile and tablet platforms as they are doing with Bing. Otherwise they might get clobered by a newcomer and lose them as well...
@GBK: The link to ArsTechnica is SPOT ON!!! I'm not going to re-hash it, but Peter Bright said everything I feel and believe MS needs to fix. If someone in MS did not read that article, shame on them. Again, why does MS make it so damn hard to like/love their products?!?!
You know it did take Android a full year and half to be adopted by the masses. It will probably be the same for WP7. Chill out people. The kinks will be worked out and we will enjoy our phones even more. I was mad like everyone else that seems to be posting their anger, but I took a step back and realized that no matter how dumb MS looks, I truely do believe they are in this game for the long haul. Even in this world of instant must haves, good things still do take time. I only say this because even though I was ticked off with delayed update AGAIN, I realized I still do truely love my Focus phone. Its missing features, but I still can't see myself going back to drinking the Kool-aid of Apple. Apple did ruin my Iphone 3g with their IOS 4, making it almost useless even before my contract was up. I also could not see myself just sitting there on Android hoping and praying that my phone will get the latest update. (How long has gingerbread been out and how many phones actually have it. Hmm?) Give it a year people, your on a contract anyways, and the OS is not awful. It actually is very good considering what it is missing.
@eeezyweezy The OS is Great.. that's why the people here are mad. It isn't about it missing the features..That just compounds the update blocking problem. it's about having had fixed bugs and added new features months ago only to have it sit on the shelf because some fat lazy fool at your carrier decided to hold up the whole process. I want the features that are complete to be released to me as soon as they are done not months later because MS has to wait for these morons at ATT, TMobile etc. Carriers have no interest in providing you with up to date software.. their entire business depends on up selling you a new phone when your contract is up.. having phones that do more over time reduces their ability to sucker you into another multi year deal. they should be completely cut out of the update process. Period.
I just read that it is apparently confirmed that NoDo will be coming to consumers the week of the 21st, which is next week. Might I make a kind suggestion to the WP7 team: DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER TO MAKE SURE THAT THE UPDATE GETS TO THE CONSUMERS ON THE WEEK OF THE 21ST.
If it fails, or is delayed again, it could be the final nail in the coffin for a lot of your early-adopters. I know the WP7 engineers are probably working day and night on this. I just think they need to fire whoever is managing the project, because they obviously can't handle the task at hand.
Seriously though, this is Microsoft's last chance here.
Ah, but you see, @eezyweezy, that's our point. We no longer believe M$ WILL get this all straightened out. Why? Because they have all but ignored the voice of the customer. Even things we insisted were missing features THEY tried to play off as intentional consideration for the end user. Did you READ what they said about the whole inability to save the camera settings? That pretty much tells you their opinion of all the features we are complaining about. And in this world of "instant" must-haves, I think waiting FOUR MONTHS for an update that was ready almost immediately after launch is ridiculous. I think the biggest sin in this whole thing is that Microsoft practically had to be blugeoned into admitting a mistake or two, and even then they still refuse to keep up the communication channel.
@eeezyweezy - Android filled a void, that's why it grew so fast, same with iPhone...WPV has no void to fill anymore, much like the Zune. If it's great and super late, it won't matter...consumer would have made their choice and the hardware manufacturers and carriers simply won't waste their time. I love the potential of my phone, but by the time it reaches that potential there are goign to be other gaping holes on things it's missing...the competition isn't sitting still.
Yesterday Bloomberg "broke" a story about the Zune being Kinned. The lack of any real denial from Microsoft is absurd but typical. While I certainly can't fault Microsoft for killing unsuccessful devices, now seems like the completely wrong time. What is the gateway device to the Windows Phone ecosystem? Do you have partners that are going to start producing these? Sometime in my lifetime?
Let me see if I've got this straight. We aren't putting Windows Phone on tablet devices. We aren't putting Windows Phone on Zune devices. And we can't seem to update the 9 devices that are running it. What, exactly, are you guys doing then?
Right now, I am embarrassed I bought a Windows Phone. Even more so because of the hoops I had to jump through to get one to Laramie, Wyoming at launch. If you want to assuage my fears feel free to email me at email@example.com. As usual, I await your silence.
In the podcast you talk of how you read many of the comments on the blog about the update, why dont you try answering some then!! All you did is get that new guy Eric to repeat what he said and make everything seem fine. People are genuinely outraged at the update situation yet you seem to brush it off, you're either incredibly stupid or just dont care about peoples complaints.
Listening to this is like North Korean news, everything is fine and we are great!! TOTAL BS!!!
Personally this is not just making me doubt the phone but MS as a whole. I suddenly feel like the future for Windows 8 tablets, as well as Xbox (b/c Kinect has more shortcomings as a platform than even WP does) is very bleak. The various teams at MS have some good ideas but refuse to work together. Therefore there is never any drive behind one single innitiative. Stop listening to useless focus groups, and the plethora of middle management in Redmond. Build products you would want to use yourself. Make that product work together with the other divisions products they way you would want them to. talk to the community, fine tune the product, and achieve success. its that simple. if people on the team or management of the team cannot envision how they would want the product to work then get rid of them. they have not place in Redmond. do not compromise at the users expense. do not compromise to carriers, or movie and music studios.please start talking to us. we want to help you succeed so much!
@cmwind - Totally agree, Windows 8 may be awesome but by that time everyone will be coding for iOS, Android, and the Web. iPad 3, iPhone 6, Android 4, and Chrome OS will be out as well as the other browsers bringing GPU acceleration. At the pace Google is moving with Chrome and bringing it to Android/Chrome OS, IE9 won't be all the impressive on WPV.
@Robert Wade Yeah i know copy and paste is important to people. The large frustration though i think comes from the fact that at this rate there will be no updates. copy and paste is a small battle in a gigantic war... so in the grand scheme of things it is not what is important about the NoDo update situation. what is important is that NO UPDATES (regardless of what they are) are shipping out. so whether it is copy and paste, bug fixes, multitasking, or the coolest feature ever on the planet... at this point (and given the situation) all of them could be in the NoDO update... but none of them would actually matter because the whole point is that there is NO UPDATE regardless of feature set
I love my Samsung Focus and will be happy to get NODO when it's ready. I don't understand all the update angst.
Hey where's 22? I can't wait to hear about all the great stuff coming in the future...AGAIN.
Whooo Hooo. Would love to download in Zune Marketplace, but podcats are only available in the USA. Us UK users have to fumble around the page to find the rss feed to subscribe. (Yes I did find it, but resent having to look) Why oh why can't you understand that people want things to just work. Windows Phone was launced in Europe first, yet we're the second class citizens, missing services our American cousins have had since launch... I love my Windows 7 phone, but am loving it less every day...
@Andy don't worry you're not missing anything. The podcast is just a ton of dribble. They talk about the MS campus and how great things will be in the future.
@graf702 I've just realised that. What a waste of 25 minutes...
I wanna hear the next podcast to see if they are going to address the concerns of the people posting here and be a bit more open....
Hey everyone. I sent a note out on Twitter yesterday since I didn't think it was worthy of a post but Windows Phone Radio is coming later this week since I was on the road last week, so I am going to get an episode recorded soon and posted as soon as I can.
Not sure where this is best posted, but thought you guys might be interested in this WP7 app... www.soton.ac.uk/.../diary.html ... (almost) out of this world! So on the topic, does anybody know which phones have actually been to space (i.e. on the shuttle)? I remember when I was working on early versions of Exchange server and the first E-mail was sent from Outlook over Exchange from (or was it to) the ISS... Discuss ;-)
@Brian - Will this episode actually contain any useful information, or will it just be more PR junk and filler about the elusive "great things to come"?
Where are the new Windows Phone Radio episodes? Are you guys on vacation? :-)
@wheelerk - not yet! :O) I wanted to get it out tomorrow but hit a small audio issue I want to try and fix. I think we are good to go for today. thanks for checking in.
hey all. couldnet get things worked out today on the podcast front, so taking a week to get the setup dialed in our new studio, get a lineup of some good guests and publish #22 on April 8.
@Brian Seitz When you do record please don't don't waste our time taking about your new studio. You need to come through with real update info. Dates and timelines anything less will be useless.
@graf702 deal. No studio talk. I will talk to the update as much there is new stuff to share. I will talk about other stuff tho because that is what I do.
@Brian Seitz Thank you for the response. It means a lot to know that you're listening. We all love the phone that's why we show so much "passion"! You (MS) and we (loyal first adopters) can make this fly. I guarantee you, if you take care of us, we'll sell more phones by word of mouth than any ad campaign ever could.
Looking forward to the next episode and hopefully NoDo for my T-Mobile HD7 will be out by then. Regardless I am looking forward to more details about the update process.
Also, word of mouth is great, but I would really like to see a WP7 ad before every iPad/iPhone/iPod ad on TV.
I don't understand why MS, being number 4 or 5 in the phone doesn't advertise the living daylights out of their products. Apple is number 1 and has a huge presence during commercial breaks. If it wasn't for the ability to skip commercials on my DVR I would go totally insane..well further insane.
I am really enjoying the Zune experiance on my phone (except podcasts and movies not being OTA) but have never seen a TV ad for that product. If I wasn't a MS follower, I wouldn't know half the products you sell.
I'm still very satisfied with my Windows Phone 7 and I have come to terms with why podcasts can't be OTA. However, I do have a suggestion. It would be extremely helpful to me if there was a way the phone could notify me when podcasts I have suscribed to post new content. I don't use my home computer every day and I have found that I sometimes find myself logging in just to see if there are new episodes to sync. If the phone notified me about new episodes I wouldn't log in to find no updates and I also would find out about the podcasts faster. Thanks for considering and if there is already a way to do this, I'd appreciate learning about it.