Update brief

Update brief

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Hi everyone. I don’t have much this week. AT&T is now testing the update for Focus v. 1.4 owners, and we’re still working to deliver that to you as soon as possible. I’ll be back with more update news next week.

Eric

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  • WiiWake
    5 Posts

    Eric and team, any updates for the V 1.4 phones, it's been 3 months that I have been patiently waiting!!!!!!!

  • It would be nice if I could pin the app section in the marketplace to my start screen

    For a platform that is supposed to get me in and out l have to go through to many layers just to get to the app section only. Will there be a fix for this in Mango? And where can I make this suggestion directly to the WP7 team?

  • What about LG Optimus owners? We are still stuck on 7008!!!! answers.microsoft.com/.../abacc9ee-fc6a-e011-8dfc-68b599b31bf5

  • Word on the street is that mango might be released mid-September. I actually believe now that I will be able to get a full RTM mango phone before nodo for my rev 1.4 focus. On the one hand, I am super stoked about mango features and new hardware, but I am very disappointed in MS' ability to update phones. If windows security patches took four months to get released, the world would be one giant botnet.

  • Actually, @GabrielK, the carriers can also add their own code to it (unfortunately).  AT&T did that with NoDo---they insisted on adding this stupid garbage that enabled devices to "automatically switch" to their hotspots if they were in range.  Value is based on what the customer is willing to pay for.  I was NOT willing to pay for this useless functionality, therefor it had no value.  Yet, I was was forced to wait (along with all other AT&T customers) on NoDo because they insisted on bloating my device with it.  I've not seen any indication whether or not AT&T is adding yet another piece of flotsam to the 7392 update, so they may be just testing the release.  What bothers me (and should for any other carriers' customers) is that there's no explanation FROM the carriers on what exactly their testing process is.  What do they actually DO?  My job is examining processes and removing waste.  I want to see the value stream map for AT&T's testing process.

  • @bionicscott  I think that is way too optimistic. I would guess that they will not actually get us an update at all but will promise our problems will go away in Windows Phone 8 so please buy it!  Then the cycle will repeat.

  • anyone want to start a pool on when the updates for Focus v. 1.4 is actually released to users phones? My guess is 6 weeks after Mango is released, but I may be overly optimistic...

  • Gabrielk
    12 Posts

    @ScubaDog2011 I could be wrong but I always thought testing was the only thing carriers did, this is what Microsoft says about delivering updates:

    Microsoft has started to send out the update. Because updates are typically delivered to customers in batches, it might take several weeks before you receive notice that an update is available for you.

    So I think it has nothing to do with carriers at that stage, just Microsoft.

  • @tsrblke  if AT&T wanted us to be happy it wouldn't take MS and them 5 months+ to get an update to my phone. They also would not have blocked an update already nor would they take weeks or months for scheduling and role out of a minor patch.

  • Hawk
    61 Posts

    Wow...I think some people have way too much time on their hands.  MS says they fixed the problem and have turned it over to the carrier.  Thanks MS for getting this done.  Now put some pressure on AT&T and ask that they do the same, get'er done!

  • @billybob101, believe me, I couldn't agree more.  That's why so many people were afraid that the carriers would charge for updates.  Many of us were under the impression that Microsoft owned the entire process, but the reality clearly turned out to be different.  And I believe that was because Microsoft had to convince carriers to take a chance on their platform.

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts

    @billybob101,

    Or it could be that AT&T wants us to be happy with our phones so we don't buy new ones (which are usually subsidized by them) and continue paying our contracts and earing them cash without any output on their end.

  • @Scuba , why would AT&T want to deliver any updates?  If you are unsatisfied with your phone you will probably want a new one and they extend your contract.  They want us to chuck our phones every 1-2 years because then we get hooked onto the carrier again.  This is why it was the wrong decision to let the carriers drive the whole ship when it comes to the updates,  Their model revolves around us having to change phones so it is actually counter productive for them to allow any updates at all.  Plus they can then blame the software or hardware provider for your phone problems to sidestep any blame.

  • baron164
    16 Posts

    I'm anxiously awaiting this update. Thank you for giving us a heads up. Hopefully ATT won't drag their feet too much and it will get scheduled quickly.

  • KR
    503 Posts

    @scubadog2011,lol,I think the AT&T guy was trying to tell u that,on the Microsoft scale your phone is not up to date,but on the AT&T scale its up to date because the update you have on your phone is the most recent that AT&T released for your phone

  • @GabrielK, what do you mean, Microsoft isn't saying what's being updated?  They most certainly are.  Again, visit the "Where's my update?" website.  Where it's appropriate to single out an individual phone, they did that.  Otherwise, the tacet answer is that all devices for that carrier are being delivered.  And, other than saying, "We've released the updates" Microsoft REALLY doesn't bear any more responsibility to tell us more.  They don't have control over the carriers, so, other than just trying to help us out, why on earth are we demanding they tell us every little thing the carriers are doing?  I'm sorry, but I keep going back to insisting that each player should only be accountable to hoe their own row.  The fact is that the carriers are NOT taking care of their end of the bargain.  At all.  I posted on AT&T's Facebook page the other day, and I made a point of telling them what version of Focus I had and pointed out that Microsoft stated they released the 7392 update to AT&T for testing.  I asked when they thought testing might be done (not really expecting an answer) and how they would be rolling the update(s) out (since both 1.3 and 1.4 versions are stopped because of this).  The idiot from AT&T who responded simply said that "based on your information, you have the most up to date software for your phone".  My response at how preposterous -- and false -- this answer was also called into question the intelligence and knowledge of the AT&T employee.  Clearly, I DON'T have the most up to date software on my phone.  I don't expect Microsoft to be tracking this part of it down for me.  I expect my carrier to get their collective heads out of the up-and-locked position.

  • @Captiosus, I completely agree with your analysis of where Apple was when the iPhone came out.  I think the key there was HUNGER.  Truth be told, I think everyone but the absolute diehard core of fanboys knew that Apple was about to poof out of existence (the colorful but useless iMac line was a dismal failure).  But in a hail mary they popped out the iPhone and pushed HARD.  They had to basically break the meme that everyone thought of Apple in.  What?  A PHONE?  Really?  Yet, the innovation and marketing were masterful.  Microsoft is NOT hunger ENOUGH, but they're getting there.  WP7, in my opinion, as almost a hail mary for them, but more in terms of a proof of concept on just how different they could shake our paradigm.  I think what they've proven---based on all the anger and hyperbole---is that the new approach is attractive enough that people actually CARE about what WP7 can do.  What this means is that Microsoft can say, "Okay, we gambled and I think we've got somethere here".   Now they are working to parlay that meme over to Windows 8....oh, but wait!  This will work great on a tablet, too!  And here's why I believe they have a chance there:  I know a LOT of people who still resist a smartphone but jumped on an iPad.  Personally, I still don't get the tablet market, since I'm of the thought that if I can't do it on my smartphone I'd much rather do it on a great notebook, which is MUCH more capable than any tablet.  Windows 8 could change my mind on that, given that it is being designed, it appears, to be much more ubiquitous.

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts

    @Captiosus,

    Some have speculated that the Antitrust suit has made MS less aggressive, I wonder if this is an example of that.  He we have a phone that even in it's infancy *is* unqiue and arguably better than it's competetors.  Mango will push that even farther (I can already see "You need an app for that?" commericals).  But there is a trepidation that's for sure.  MS cowtowed to AT&T on more than one occasion, most notibly the updates.  Yes, MS should have put it's foot down and said "no more testing, we're flipping the switch and if your not ready it'll be you we'll poin the finger at."  But they didn't and that ship as sailed their's no going back.

    BUT if they did play it that way I'm sure we'd hear complaints of "big evil MS trying to squash anyone who gets in their way again."

    Regarding the iPhone crowd.  I'll be blunt.  They aren't in MS's eyesight (IMHO), they don't want Windows phones, most of them didn't even want Androids and they won't be convinced, period.  I've showed several apple users my phone and the response I've gotten is "Wait, you don't need to open an app to check the weather, and you can use office on this thing!  That's wicked, but i won't get one it's by microsoft/not made by apple."  Heck the other day I had a friend go out and buy a Mac because "it's what everyone else in the department uses and it's easy."  3 days later he came to me and said "Wow, I can do so much less than I could before, and trying to get certian things to work is just a pain and UI was clearly designed with a very paricular type of person in mind, maybe I should have stuck with a PC."  But he won't say that to the Mac users and likely the cult of Mac will claim him for his next computer.

  • Captiosus
    103 Posts

    @ScubaDog - Regarding your comment here:

    "It's a myth to believe that Microsoft is as powerful and influential as it once was."

    Perhaps true, though in the Desktop OS and Office Markets, they're still behemoths that dwarf their competitors. So answer me this: When the iPhone came out, Apple wasn't at its strongest. Mac was a sub-4% niche computer market and they were existing, almost entirely, on iPod sales. What made them "powerful and influential" enough back then to get AT&T, who really could have flicked Apple away like an annoying gnat, to bow to their demands about no carrier interference and Apple control of the update process for a device that was, at the time, a major risk?

    I guess what I'm asking is: If Apple could bring AT&T to their knees when Apple was in a LESS influential position, why couldn't Microsoft work with both parties to add value AND retain control of OS updates? I honestly cannot see any reason why Microsoft could not have worked with both groups: OEMs to deliver firmware updates to the hardware and carriers as "advanced developers", giving them value added benefits for being carriers of the platform (all the while retaining control of the actual OS update process).

  • KR
    503 Posts

    With friends like AT&T and Telefonica, do Microsoft even needs WP7 enemies??

  • Gabrielk
    12 Posts

    @ScubaDog2011 I've taken it up on Telefonica for months and I'll keep telling them how useless they are even after I get the update, I'm sure it's their fault because they probably didn't approve the Omnia 7 updates yet but that's not the point here. The point is that Microsoft is not saying which phones are being updated and everyone can see that only those who own an LG phone are getting the updates.

  • KR
    503 Posts

    @scubadog2011,sure W8 brings in a z-axis to the tablet table but the fact is how many tablet users will care about it.i have tried some Android tablets,the touchpad and the playbook,I'll have to say,to me some were better than the Ipad2,but look at how the are doing on the market.look at WP7,from the design to its performance its way better than other smartphones,but how are the sales?and how many people switched from other platforms to it?I bet u 95% of WP users are former WM users or people who got it for free which account for about 10% of the 95%.all i'm trying to say is that,its not really about how special the product is,but also how the customers perceive the brand and past experience with the producers a domain in which Microsoft has failed.so I bet you W8 tablets will just be like WP or even worst like the playbook and all the other crap out there,one reason being again the name,people will think is just like a W7 amplified and will think is not good for tablets just as the W7 tablets.not understanding it is a completely new approach

  • @Kenny Rawlins, I'm guessing at this point that Microsoft really isn't too driven to grab the Apple desktop crowd.  I think the sweet spot for them will be if they can demonstrate Win8 on the tablet as being iPad+, then they can grab that market...or at least be a contender.  When I look at the iPad 2 I keep thinking "2 dimensional".  Not in the video sense, but in the functional sense.  Win8 so far looks to be putting a z-axis on the metaphor, taking the strengths of their desktop (which still owns the market) and the strengths of the WP7 platform, creating a single OS that can move, nearly seamlessly, from one hardware platform to another.

  • @mcenroe84, make sure you're not confusing the OEMs with Microsoft.  Microsoft doesn't design or build the devices.  The OEMS do.  Microsoft just licenses the OS.  Having said that, let's break down your requests.  NFC....OEMs aren't fully on board with that yet, and I've not heard whether WP7 will eventually include that.  Potentially, it could, but that's still a very niche demand.  The iPhone 5 doesn't appear to have anything all that special coming with it.  It basically adds features that Android AND WP7 already had...so they are copying their competition.  "Push the envelope".  I'd argue that WP7 itself pushed the envelope and Mango pushes it harder.  It's not just about WHAT it does, which in many cases is the same as the competition, but it's about HOW it does it.  I'd argue it does many things a better WAY than the competition.  Dual cameras, according to the latest info coming from developers, are supported in Mango.  But dual cameras is a hardware feature...again, look to the OEMs.  Nokia's Sea Ray will apparently have dual cameras (one of which will be 8mp).  As for the full QWERTY keyboard, exactly what do you mean?  The Quantum has a keyboard.  The Venue does, too.  It looks like the market for those is significantly less than non-keyboard versions.  BTW, notice any iPhones with a keyboard?  Nope.  On the fast CPU front----WHY?  My focus beats my wife's iPhone and my friends Droid in most functions, for example.  Why have a behemoth device if the OS is so slick that it works as well on lesser specs than the competition does on cutting edge?  What a waste for you normal user.  There is no point to it other than bragging rights.  Having said that, though, the Nokia Sea Ray reportedly will have a dual core processor.  If you paid attention to MIX'11 and some of the other conferences/expos you would see that Microsoft IS doing something.  They ARE working hard.  But you are NOT going to see magical addition of features that depend on the OEMs actually producing a device for.  Period.  Oh, BTW, Samsung is apparently coming out with something to compete with the Nokia Sea Ray, having similar specs.  It looks like newer devices will have a bit more memory range, but it also looks like Microsoft's insistence that we will be relying more on the cloud and streaming features instead of storing things locally is creating slow adoption of devices with significant RAM.  32GB appears to be where the next batch of devices will be hanging, and we will probably not see any more devices come out with an SD slot.  My Focus has 40GB and I'm quite happy with it.  If a 64GB device came out I'd probably jump on it.  As it is, the Sea Ray is looking very enticing.  So, start watching more of the mobile websites (I have 10 that I watch every day for news & leaks) and you'll be up on what's coming.  A lot of what you're demanding is already in the pipeline.

  • @ScubaDog2011, I like your optimism and I hope you're right. I think we all really want this platform to succeed for various reasons. My wife has a Focus rev. 1.4 and I'm tired of her calling me to look up a co-worker's contact info out of her GAL because her company still runs Exchange Server 2003, while passive aggressively reminding me that her iPhone never had such difficulties. Nevermind the fact that she actually loves her phone and would never want to go back to Apple, she just enjoys ribbing me and Microsoft/Samsung/AT&T aren't helping!

  • Hawk
    61 Posts

    I'm a MS supporter and I would love to see WP7 succeed.  However, WP7 will never succeed if Microsoft cannot guarantee that all WP7 phones will receive Mango.  The success of WP7 totally depends on the success of the Mango update.  If Microsoft knows RIGHT NOW if any of the current phones won't receive Mango, they better make that known NOW.  

    If MS wants to compete with Apple and Google, the Mango upgrade has to go smooth.  Abosultely zero hiccups.  Personally, if my phone can't be upgraded, I'll switch back to the iPhone.  I just hope it never comes to that because I really do like WP7.

  • Whoo hoo Focus owners!  That means we will get mango around September....... of 2012.

  • KR
    503 Posts

    It will really be interesting to see Microsoft being wiped off the scene as IBM,and actually seeing how Apple is gaining more customers both on the mobile and main Computer platform I am seeing that happening in a decade and a half.considering that new players are entering the game.I just think Microsoft as a whole is still not yet aware of how they're are leaving the scene since their market share hasn't been falling like that of RIM.

    For example Windows 8,which appears to be a great OS is in no way interesting to all current Mac Users to whom I've talk,all they say is they'll never go back to any windows thing,this made me think may be the name Windows in WP7 is a draw back to many smartphone customers since they all think is just an update of Windows mobile on new hardware. I also thought the same when buying my HD7 and just bought because I am a Microsoft fanboy who wss satisfied in windows mobile.but the question is how many people are fan of windows mobile??

    Windows phone/Windows mobile names sound similar

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts

    Eric, Since the update contains nothing new from AT&T's perspective do we at least expect a quick turn around?

    My surround Crapped out, and Brian was nice enough to send me a replacement (since the phone was a prize from Windows Phone radio) and it's a foucus (which is what I wanted) so now I'm potentially in this boat too.  I'm hoping for a quick release and now that there's a 1.4 known I hope Mango goes smooth, because I love my Windows phone!

  • WP7 "must" get phones into the marketplace for the IT guys.  I want NFC....hurry up and get a device in the marketplace with NFC!  Apple and Google are kicking the WP7 dev teams butt!  I'm sick and tired of waiting and waiting for Mango this and Mango that.  That's old news at this point....the iPhone 5 will be out in September.  We need Bill Gates back .....he had a vision and nads to push the envelope.  I bet you I could do a better job than the current WP7 head of development.  Get assertive for crying out loud!   Here's what is needed in the marketplace by WP7:   dual-cameras; NFC; full-qwerty keyboard; and a fast CPU with RAM to support he device instead of being cheap!  I'm at a point that I am ready to go Android due to the delays......HURRY UP and stop delaying things!  GET SOMETHING DONE and stop talking about it!

  • AT&T testing = making sure their bloatware is installed.

  • Actually, @DreilingStL, I think you can take a less hyperbolic stance than that.  Judging by the relative smoothness with which the Mango beta has deployed, I'd say there's probably a better chance that delays won't be as bad an issue (notice I didn't say that it WOULDN'T be an issue).  I'm feeling pretty confident that it will go better than NoDo.  I'm betting, at this point, that developers will beat the beta to death until September, feeding Microsoft whatever issues, bugs, etc. they get snagged with, and then Microsoft will button down what they can during September and probably roll the update to carriers in October.  They will, of course, get to do their "testing", to be followed by the scheduling and delivery.  So, October/November is when I think the first users will see the final Mango release.

  • @GabrielK, please refer to the Jun 22 blog post.  You'll see that Microsoft announced Telefonica is delivering all updates.  Once delivery is announced it typically is a few weeks for all users to get the notifications.  But all that is on the carrier, not Microsoft.  So, you'll need to take it up with Telefonica, since the ball is in their court now.

  • Eric, thanks for being a stand-up guy and at least posting about the update. Short of actually getting the update onto devices, consistent and forthright communication is the most important thing. That said, I think you and the rest of the WP7 team need to start "damage control" ahead of what is sure to be a make-or-break season for WP7. Maybe some detailed explanations of why this update in particular, and the NoDo update process as a whole, was so difficult. Perhaps a couple conciliatory joint posts with Samsung or AT&T reps, or a YouTube video. Because the truth of the matter is that WE are your most effective marketing platform. Carrier sales reps aren't that interested (as we've seen) and the TV commercials aren't that effective. I've already "sold" five WP7 devices to friends and family, and I want to help build the platform even further, but I can't tell someone today to go buy an AT&T Windows Phone and have any confidence they'll get to install Mango before next summer.

  • Gabrielk
    12 Posts

    So another week has gone by and still no update for Omnia 7 phones on Telefonica other than 7008, are you going to admit at some point that they are not being released? Or are you going to wait until they really are released since several weeks can mean anything from 2 weeks to 14 weeks or maybe even a year?

  • FuchiStar
    18 Posts

    Scuba,

    That last paragraph was excellent...

  • @Bobby Cannon, I think the staggered approach is largely due to the fact that Microsoft bowed to the carriers and let them dictate the terms.  The carriers' policies aside, I can't help but ask what technically or logistically prevents a simple, single mass release when an update is ready.  Again, if the carriers were told "hands off the Microsoft releases", why couldn't those simply be sent out en masse?  Then OEMs or carriers could send out their own unique updates on their own schedules.  OEM updates should be firmware-only, and carrier updates should be app-only, in my opinion.  

    However, at the present, I believe the staggered approach allow the carriers to screw around with the updates to see if there are any bits of garbage they want to inflict on us.  Personally, I have yet to see any AT&T software that I would want on my Focus.  And Samsung really hasn't put out anything that takes unique advantage of the Focus.  HTC and LG have actually produced better unique software (e.g, I am enjoying the speech-to-text app tremendously).

    The thing is, Microsoft was way late getting to the modern smartphone game, and had to give up a LOT to entice OEMs and carriers to adopt a new OS.  It's a myth to believe that Microsoft is as powerful and influential as it once was.  Yes, it has market it still dominates, but it grew to become a shadow of its former self.  I'm convinced WP7 and, now, Windows 8 (which I think will be an awesome tablet platform) will begin to turn that tide, but right now Microsoft has a lot to prove.  Who would have thought, a couple of decades ago, that IBM would essentially disappear from the scene, particulary in the hardware realm?

  • I think what people are saying is "staggered" updates suck. BTW, I'm a huge fanboy of not only WP7 but also Microsoft. I also tend to agree that this whole update period sucks. Some people get updates other don't for WEEKS / MONTHS. That is really a joke. Updates should be as nice as your Mango beta update. Basically there is no need to get OEMs or Carriers involved. Is was so easy smeezy. I'm also loving the changes in Mango! Zune player is soooo much better.

  • Hi Eric and other users. Here in Spain ALL customer only got March update (7008) to his Samsung Omnia 7 device from Telefonica. The update comes just a day after announcing the release, but since we do not receive anything more... And I assure you that we have all the correct settings. We need really help now about this, is July and our devices not have the advantages of upgrading to NoDo, also I can't  use Mango Beta as developers because I do not meet the requirements of having at least the version installed (7392) in my device. HELP!!!

  • dkb1898
    167 Posts

    Hi Eric, thanks for the update. I think once you guys get all the phones up to 7392, you may way to roll out another update before mango. It doesn't need to be a large update, but if you can have it go smoothly over a week or so to EVERY windows 7 phone, I think that would do wonders for everyones confidence that they will get Mango when it's available and not staggered over 3-4 months. Or maybe your resources would be better spent making sure Mango get's to everyones phone, because it gets out on new phones. That would do the same.

  • ScubaDog
    141 Posts

    In contrast, as a Focus 1.3 owner who can't receive the 7392 update until AT&T releases ALL the Focus devices to roll, I want to say thanks for giving us an update, and I'm encouraged that at least you have completed the fix.  Now I just have to wait until the people at AT&T---whom I have NO confidence in their competence---to complete their part.  At least we're moving forward.  Thanks, @Eric.

  • Just got my invite for the Mango Beta today. To bad it does me no good until I can update my Focus.

  • I'm going to ask a question that I hope will receive an honest, straightforward answer.

    It seems like Microsoft has their ducks in a row, delivering updates to the carriers as promised, but that the hold up is from carriers and OEMs. If MS didn't allow the carrier and OEM customizations, would the update-approval process be quicker, similar to Apple's quick update process with the iPhone?

  • brianm76
    61 Posts

    I really wanted you to prove me wrong Eric / MS but you didn't.  Now I am going to sound like a broken record (Fair Warning). So ATT is now testing the update and even if they only take a week to test it, your update next week will say something to the effect of we are scheduling the update for Focus 1.4 owners.  Scheduling, according to MS own words can take up to 10 business days.  Then, we hit the next step of delivering the update (in batches of course).  This can take weeks and months as we have seen already and so we are now looking at Mid August before we get the update.  I feel like we are being punked because this is all just too much to comprehend.  On a slightly different note I love this platform and do not want to see it fail which is why the update process so far angers me so much.  This is why I am here complaining every time there is a new post about an update that may or may not ever come.  I hope that in a year or 2 we are not looking back on this as the time when MS destroyed their chances of success in this area because of a failed update process.  It will be very sad indeed.