Preparing for our next major update

Preparing for our next major update

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Hello everyone. For several months now I’ve been dropping by here each week to bring you the latest on software updates for your phone.  We’ve learned a lot from delivering the first round of updates—lessons we’re applying to the next release of Windows Phone, which I know many of you are eagerly awaiting.

My team and I are heads down right now, putting all our energy into preparing for this major update. Until that work is done, I wanted to let you know that I won’t be actively posting here. The next time you hear from me, it’ll be to let you know Mango is making its way to your phone.

In the meantime, rest assured that this blog will continue to be your source for news about the phone, including updates. And if there’s something important that needs to be addressed, we will.

Stay tuned.

Eric Hautala, GM, Customer Experience Engineering

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  • riz699
    5 Posts


    Would you give us date of release because we are sick of this now? What about copying and paste function in received text messages? Copy paste function between different applications? At the moment it is not possible to copy phone number from web and paste in dialler to make a call.

    Office is crap in WP7. I had office in my windows mobile 6 and it was much better than this so called newer version.. It looks like Microsoft has stolen this office from low level software company. This office is absolute rubbish when you want to edit word or excel document. No option to select a range of cells in excels or being able to drag a formula down the col. It looks like it is incomplete office and released in haste. I shall be disappointed if this is not improved and I would go back to iPhone which is so better in getting things done. It was only the office which attracted me to buy WP7 phone and I regret why did I gifted my iPhone for WP7 to my brother.  Now my only hope is that is Mango update would solve these problem or I shall have to buy iphone 5  and forget about office.

    Why there is no option to minimise the keypad in editing mode? This makes it annoying when you want to review while editing especially in excel and composing email.

    Why hotmail fails to sync when on cellular network? Dont tell me that this might be insufficient signal strength. I am able to watch youtube video and browse websites but still hotmail will fail to sync.

    Bing search is crap. It does not give the results that I want and I have to use google.

    The biggest problem of all. I was trying to download maps in app called OfflineMaps. It takes ages to download maps. I was blaming the developer of the app but found out that it is Microsoft that has put this developer in shame. Microsoft does not allow downloading map data over Zune and it takes forever to download directly on phone on wifi. You can image how disappointed the developer would be on this restriction.

    I do not want my 500 contacts in email and facebook in my phone book (People). There should be option to put email and facebook contacts in separate section. Do not forget the main purpose of phone is to make and receive calls.  Making call is not easy as well. First you tap on a contact that you have found then another screen will open then it give option to make a call or txt or email etc etc. In the end you tap again on call button to make a call. It is very annoying. When I go to my phone book, (which is not a phone book actually) and tap on contact it should be calling there and then straight away. There is no need for these options. I hate this lengthy procedure. MAKE IT EASY TO CALL FROM PHONE.

    I would like to see some explanation from Microsoft team on these issues. I would like answers on point by point basis on every issue that I raised.

  • Dear folks,

    can anybody of you report a bug in windwos phone which is there since first release?

    There is a problem for years between Microsoft Clients and WIndows live which makes birth dates to be one early when contacts are transfered from client to Windows live. The buggy client code has been used for OUtlook Mail connector, iOs as well as Windows Phone. This is sad.

    Anyway the Outlook developers now fixed that issue which has been there for years, take a look at their blog here:

    With Mango RTM 7720 this bug is NOT fixed! So please anybody who has contact to any microsoft developer team please forward this. A lot of guys including me is reporting this for a long time. Since now the problem is located - the client code used - and fixed in one Microsoft Client software it should be fixed in Mango also. Sadly also this bug is reported to a lot of Microsoft forums but it looks it never reaches the developers.

    If anyone at Microsoft reading this, please take care of it. The so called "birthday bug" is out for years and it has not been fixed in current Mango RTM.

    I hope you bloggers have some contacts to someone that feels more responsible for Microsoft than writing stupid "My name is .... and I will help you with you problem" messages you get when reporting to Microsoft answers.

    Thanks for reading. Help Windows Phone Mango get better!

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    I've just noticed they still haven't fixed the reboot timeouts with the mango beta update...

    And I really suppose they won't fix it. I've got a very clear notion of what causes it, but the average user can't know it.

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    very nicely said in many points. Let me share my thoughts on some of your questions though, backwards from the end of your comment.

    Of course they will dig themselves out of a 1% market share. But I think digging themselves out of such a small place will have a very strong impact in the long run. Lagging so much behind for their own faulty choices, has a price to pay, not just now. More, I think it's mainly this first year or so that will haunt them in the future. They alienated a lot of good advocates and hopefuls from the platform. Those work MIRACLES in spreading a brand name, see all the hype Apple managed to sprinkle through their faithful flock of brainless fanatics. Microsoft has created a lot of the opposite in this first year, especially with the NoDo update, but also with other shortcomings and - as you say - lack of proper communication. Very trusting people put their faith in them, not last the developers, and they failed under a few key aspects. Those potential 'fanatics' are the most dangerous weapon because they don't know half measures, they're now deceived and will naysay the platform for a while. You can count me half-in that group :) (just kidding.... maybe just a bit)

    For the problems in the Marketplace, believe me... I've wrote pages and pages and discussed the argument in a 20 pages thread on the app hub forum with a couple of guys.... I've also had the chance to propose some of the solutions and views directly to the team (1 new app per day , 10 new apps a month per developer, etc)... but it's hopeless. They simply don't want to understand the problem or they're willingly ignoring it. They just see a small problem with the 'new' page (which is -however- totally unsolved with their recent 20-app-a-day limit, which, by the way, isn't enforced anymore !!) and that's all. App quality, scams, flooding a category, keyword spamming, key category positioning with the wrong app, fake reviews, etc they don't give a crap about it, full stop.

    So don't worry, I never say  "do a better job at x", I just think these issues are more related to the dev department.

    Nice of you to give them the benefit of the doubt. I've often said that -I don't know why I feel like that, but I think it's so- the professionality and the human stature of Microsoft employees is better than most people working for other companies. So, yes, I often find myself thinking that they probably meant well, even when they screwed up.

    But this is business and most importantly consumer oriented. Consumer care ZERO for the source of the problem of for the intentions of the provider, as you rightly say.

    I don't think carriers behaved more in a more obstinant way than they normally do. They are leeches in the mobile industry and they always will be. Sure, MS might be positioned a little awkardly compared to those that arrived early to the party, but for 80386's sake, they're MS ! I put it entirely to their fault not having managed better deals or procedures to ensure a carrier free update deployment.

    The current state of affairs is that carriers have the last word, completely. The whole argument about jumping max one update at a time is rubbish. That means that since MS deploys 2-3 updates a year, you could go an entire year without updates, for all aspects, being force to TWO versions old software, because, you know they can jump one update AND delay another pretty much how much they want !

    I also see you have quite a bit of healthy anger against Android. I can understand it. But in this game it's who wins that is right, not the opposite and Microsoft has yet to show a winning hand, while it had pretty much been folding the entire time up to now.

    @BuckeyeTico - glad to see people don't forget stuff ! The comment from Eric that they won't give ANY date for the start of the rollout rekindled my sentiments regarding their failure of update system.

  • @andycted,

    Absolutely agree with your assessment of the carrier situation.  Although, because of how it was phrase, I don't think Microsoft LIED about the situation back when WP7 first deployed, I believe it was a misrepresentation of the actual process--which, for consumers, results in the same effect.  To give the benefit of the doubt, I have to believe that Microsoft probably didn't anticipate that the carriers would be as stupid and obstinant about the process as they turned out to be (do you HEAR me, AT&T?).  The case can be made that Microsoft SHOULD have anticipated it, though.  Also, I think that they were a bit over a barrel because they were coming SO late to the prom that they essentially had to "pay their date" to go out with them.  Well, once your date realizes they can get paid to go out with you, they expect it every other time.  It's going to be tough for Microsoft to put the genie back in that bottle.  Nokia MIGHT be the way to turn that around, but we'll see.  The bottom line as I see it is, politics aside, carriers need to be put in their place, which is this: YOU ARE A SOURCE OF CONNECTIVITY, PERIOD.  QUIT ACTING LIKE WE CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE YOU DO.  JUST GIVE US CONNECTIVITY AT A REASONABLE PRICE AND LEAVE OUR DEVICES THE HECK ALONE!    That's really it.  We don't need their bloatware.  We don't need anything else from them.  Let the OEMs work directly with the OS folks (whether that's Apple, Microsoft or Google) completely unfettered by interference from carriers.  However, the ONLY platform that enjoys that autonomy is Apple.  Android is a hot mess when it comes to version, updates, etc.  An ugly, hot mess.  BUT, you can darn sure get a 99 cent piece of junk Android "smartphone".  Africa is now all happy and excited because they can get a toy $80 Android phone.  Whoop-dee-doo!  2.8 inch screen, 256MB of RAM and 2hr battery life.  Yep, sign me up.  Oh, and you'll probaby never see the next version of Android on it.  

    Now, as for the developer issue and the Marketplace....what would you propose as countermeasures?  Don't just say " do a better job at x".  What is missing and what would be a reasonable countermeasure?  Clearly, their initial drive was to get as many apps in the Marketplace as quickly as possible.  They've proven that people can write apps quickly and get them to market pretty quickly, regardless of quality.  Developers like the tools.  But piper to be paid is that it's SO easy to create low quality apps that they now have to enage a piece of the process that actually maintains quality standards.  OH!  But what standards do you apply?  And how do you do so in a manner that doesn't stifle influx of apps?  And what about new apps that will be coming once Mango is out?  I think that we will see a LOT more apps (and better ones) with Mango because so much more of the system can be taken advantage of.  Apps will fille more requirements and fill them in a better way.  But, the garbage will also increase, too.  How do you police that?  I don't have an answer for that.

    I think we've beaten the communication and marketing issues to death.  I know the folks at Microsoft read these posts (I don't have to have acknowledgement to be satisfied that they are hearing us), so they are aware.  So, whether they change their mode of operation there is up to them, and theirs to let die.  None of us knows how many people they actually have assigned to work various issues, whether that's marketing, development, deployment, whatever.  Maybe it's not enough.  And maybe they are absolutely convinced they're going about it the right way.  We just don't know.  Personally, however, I'm encouraged by what's in Mango and how Mango has been shared out to this point.  It's not going to be a silver bullet, nor would it be realistic for anyone to insist it should be or that it could be.  I do think that by the end of this year we'll have a pretty good idea if Microsoft has righted the WP7 ship.  Deployment of Mango will, in my opinion, either reaffirm the carrier significance in the process or it will be a sure signal to Microsoft that any further deployment of Windows Phone must be accompanied with a reboot of the deployment process and kick carriers back down to their rightful place.  I think the OS and device side is solid.  If they nail the deployment and the regional market gorillas, they will easily crawl out of the 1% share.

  • @ andycted - Man, I've been saying the same thing for the last 6-7 months or so.  You are right about it!

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    "I'm not as pessimistic [...] as you are"

    DING ! Right on target :)

    I got VERY pessimistic with wp7. It's an obvious response to continuous trouble and pain in deploying apps, but it's also the result of closely following some turns of events.

    Regarding tethering, when everybody had the iphone and the iphone couldn't tether, the plans weren't that affordable anyway. Right now I'd say many people see this as a very profitable option and it has made an impression on the general public as 'modern' smartphones (android, for the general public) can do it easily. Hotspot functionality was always meant to be used while connected to mains, in order to avoid carrying a cable, or as many times it happened to me, to be able to provide internet to some laptops on the go, or to multiple computers at once. I think it has become quite important in the eye of the consumer and anyway, anything that GOOD smartphone marketing (so, nothing to do with Microsoft) tells the consumer, just once, become important, at least here.

    Regarding the Mango deployment, you're still talking from the point of view of an informed person. The vast majority of people don't know (and don't care, rightly so) if it's MS or the carriers who delay. They don't get the only semi-functional major update they will have with their contract, maybe for about 1/2 of the contract itself (on year, very possibly, if it deploys in January for some like AT&T). This is what the end user sees and what he cares for.

    My point of view is different too. I think MS got bad deals with the carriers and screwed up the promise of unilateral updates. The carriers are the carriers and always have been. They've pulled these tricks, delaying or not deploying, for years now. That's why it was required and welcomed the step that Microsoft announced of managing directly the updates. Which didn't happen though. We're very close to step 1, when  WinMo was deployed (when and if they wanted) by carriers or OEMs. There is an improvement, but that's hardly enough, in my opinion, and the first update demonstrated that. I think they have the same exact situation now, and I've also learned to not trust them when they say "They are working closely with XYZ to improve 123", where XYZ is some kind of nuisance in the equation and 123 is a service they have to provide the users the devs. This is the same that happened with the spam issue. They said they would work closely with the 'spammers' to convince them to deploy better, useful, SINGLE, apps. Fast forward less than a month from that, and the marketplace crawls once more WITH THE SAME SPAMMERS, some with different names, who are publishing once more the same cloned apps. No sign of answer from Marketplace team regarding this, of course.

    Back to the first point: I've had so many bad experiences so far, and zero positive ones for quite a while, that it's either a bad stretch of them or bad luck of mine, I don't know. What I know is that I also hear the wp7 consumer (what consumer ?) disattisfied with many shortcomings. This is no way to dig yourself out of a 1% mobile market share...

  • @Erick

    Please tel me how far the mango update is

  • I'm still not convinced why tethering is so blasted important.  I never used the feature on any other phone I had.  Oh, sure, I tried it out for the novelty of it....but it quickly became an unused feature.  I'm almost as doubtful of hotspots, particularly because that REALLY eats your battery.  Maybe Android phones currently get around the carriers, but I can just about guarantee you that won't happen for much longer.  I can't speak for the European market---I know that carriers want to make as much money as they can, and if they can continue to charge extra for that kind of service, they most assuredly will.  And, that said, it's my understanding that tethering and hotspots are coming with the full Mango, subject to implementation by carriers.  And, as I said, it's highly expected that Nokia will begin the flooding of the market with low-end WP7 devices.

    I'm not as pessimistic about the Mango deployment as you are, that's clear.  In fact, I think PART of the reason why Beta 2 is so easily acquired is because they wanted to test some things, perhaps, clandestinely.  Again, while you (and others) might blame Microsoft for the carriers, I don't, and I believe that for the parts of the update process that Microsoft actually owns & controls they are getting that down pat.  It does remain to be seen if the CARRIERS have learned any lessons.  As you said, the issues with Microsoft and WP7 congeal around Marketing, Communication and Developer/Publishing support.  I'd argue that Android has similar problems with two of those.  The one area they excel in is Marketing.  It's brilliant in that it creates an image without actually telling you diddly squat about the useability of the device---and it plays to the growing simplistic mindset of the public: they are shallow.   People will flock to buy a cute little robot, nevermind the fact that the OS sucks and the devices are mostly (not all) pieces of garbage.  They're 99 cents with contract and I get a cute robot.

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    I was talking about mobile ie9 vs android browser. I never used chrome extensively too and I hate firefox

    Regarding all the other points: you're talking as a tech-savvy person. 95% of the mobile market public isn't half as tech savvy. That's why I personally can agree with some of your points, but they are lost to the average consumer.

    The average consumer uses google as a search engine and all the services it comes with. The privacy issues google had are just a soft buzz in their ears and doesn't impact the nice image they build every day with gimmicks like the doodles with google logo, the android mascot, etc. Tethering out of the box here in Europe doesn't rely on operators, and it actually almost never does for android even in the US. One fact for sure is that you can't tether a windows phone without a hack and you can't use it as a hotspot at all.

    The cheap phones help A LOT putting android on the map. Carriers, shops, people, everything gets saturated with cheap models and a few good ones, you get that image entering a shop today. There is the main spotlight for a single iphone and there is an endless landscape of androids, with green robots everywhere around it. And maybe there is a windows phone, if you're lucky, in a corner BEHIND blackberries and (in one shop I saw it, I swear) behind an old HTC HD2.

    Agreed regarding the services on the phone. But consumers are just using google, gmail, picasa, gtalk, etc and other stuff they provide for the old, stupid, reason that they are interconnected and you need to remember just one password. So it helps android, even if those services work half of the time (if lucky) on the phone.

    And once more, I think we agree on one thing: all these negative factors (which we can agree on or not) would count a lot less if Microsoft stepped up their game with WP7 marketing and targets. I don't expect nothing less than the same NoDo update mess with Mango, I haven't seen any indication to expect anything different (other than an apology 'lesson learned' ? that doesn't prove anything). Actually I've seen Eric here saying we won't know a release date until the very day the release comes. That - to me - means they're still up **** creek (like John Belushi used to say :) ) with the carrier testing problem.

  • Can anyone who is running Beta 2 of Mango tell me if any improvement to Excel and Word has been made, particularly in the area of formatting?  Being limited to just a couple of horrible colors, no fonts, etc., forces me to do all my edits in the web version or at home and then send them to my device.

  • @andycted, okay, here's where I have to disagree, if only from a subjective perspective.  I HATE Chrome.  I think it's a horrible browser.  I tried it before I installed IE9 and I definitely prefer IE9.  I just hate Chrome.  But that's one guy's opinion.  I was a long time Firefox user before IE9 stepped up the game.  

    I don't believe the numbers puts a lock on sustaining Android for years.  I think the fragmentation and other problems are so systemic with Android that the numbers may actually result in a partial collapse and a pushback.  The purchase of Motorola was clearly a desperate move by Google, the results of which remain to be seen.  Personally, I think they will anger their other partners in the long run and reduce the attractiveness to keep kicking out devices with Android.

    A nice image?  Again, that's subjective.  I do not like Google.  I don't use their search engine, I don't use most of the services they provide.  I don't trust them.   They are not trustWORTHY, in my opinion.  The image I have of Google is NOT pretty, and I don't mind sharing that opinion to any who can hear it.  But that's me.

    I can't speak too much on the tethering & hotspot functionality.  It doesn't really matter what the OS can support because it's a feature owned by the carriers.  It's a non-player as far as I'm concerned.  I do know that I CAN tether with my Focus, but I just don't see the point.  The more I can do on my smartphone, why would I waste its battery just to play modem to some other device?  Answer: I wouldn't.

    Cheapest price points.....I'm tempted to say that you get what you pay for and leave it at that.  Most of the Android devices are pieces of junk---I can't tell you how many Android users I know who complain that the initial experience was okay but then what followed was an endless frustration with the quality of the devices.  However, that's not enough to combat the fact that there ARE cheaper Android phones.  Some people ARE cheap.  I'm pretty certain, however, that the partnership with Nokia is about to change that.  We will likely begin seeing stepped down WP7 devices next year from Nokia.

    I'm not sure what you're talking about regarding tons of free services.  They have a lot of disconnected services, that's for sure.  Microsoft has worked hard to create a more unified, integrated experience with the services people actually USE.  I guess I'd have to see some examples on the Android side to make a fair comparison.

    Like I said, this is mostly a subjective response, but I don't think completely without merit.  I don't disagree with your analysis of Microsoft's targets vs what actually executed, for the most part.

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    Functionally screwed is _the_ definition.

    Then again, I always thought they would never be able to reach more than a tied second place in future years, in the mobile business. Actually at the very beginning I had some mild hopes for something more, seeing the excellent OS and more importantly the EXCELLENT goals MS had with it. Half of those 'targets' are already in the mud :

    - marketplace app quality vs spam, crappy cloned apps, zero category and keyword control, etc

    - unified, timely updates vs carrier testing, delays

    - services integration vs a half assed email client and some skydrive support in infancy

    - xbox live and the xbox 'integration' vs a worthless branding over many crappy games

    - dev focus vs lack of support, lack of visibility protection, lack of reliability

    - some other stuff better not said in a user blog

    some  other goals are so late it mostly doesn't matter. Especially when there is ZERO marketing and zero presence outside the US.

    Anyway, I had been thinking for a while an OS like wp7, the elephant budget for ads, the 'power' behind Microsoft, OEM partners, services, etc, would have given them a way to reach somehow the iphone at a 15-20% market share. Far from 'dominating' the market, like a good os and company like MS could, but respectable.

    Right now, I'm not so sure at all. The slow game will get its results for sure, but they will be small. On a personal note, having to put up with everything that happened so far (on the dev side) is twice as painful in knowing that 'arriving early' on this platform and trusting in them, only means 'arriving TOO early'

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts


    To be entirely fair, I wasn't trying to say they could pull of an Xbox.  In part they got lucky with the Xbox.  Sony screwed the pooch in so many ways with the PS3 leaving the door wide open.

    On the continuum between the Zune and the Xbox however (or perhaps the Kin and the Xbox) I'm hoping they can pull something off that's farther to the Xbox side than the Zune/Kin side (even if that's only slightly past center.)  Likely that still leaves them in 3rd place, but at least it's a supportable 3rd place.  The world wide market is huge, and 3rd place may still be profitable.

    You are right though that as long as WP7 remains entirely unknown to a consumer base that thinks all Android phones are "Droids" and iPhone is the only other option, they're functionally screwed.

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    I can hardly disagree with what you say. My gripes however go further than their marketplace and publishing services, into the end user environment, in the particular way that I see the same type of shortcomings in timelines, features, reliability and maybe communication and understanding/responding customer needs

    Google has a bag of problems, agreed. But has also all the numbers and momentum to keep going for years on the top.

    what they have is more than enough and it's what matters most:

    The best browser in the market

    Possibly the best email service linked to their services

    The best tethering and hotspot functionality

    The cheapest price points

    A nice image, tons of free services, etc

  • @andycted, putting that way, I don't much disagree.  I think, then, that It might be more accurate to describe your contention as being that you love their tools for developing, but are dissatisfied with their processes that SURROUND the tools, particularly the publishing part.  That fits with what i've read other developers to post---building apps for WP7 leaves the other platforms in the dust.....but it's getting that last mile that's hurting them.  The Marketplace has long been a source of complaint, from getting things published, to allowing spam apps, to battling the regional issues.  Apple had similar growing pains, but conquered it quickly (though it's a mystery how).  Google hasn't so much conquered it, in my opinion, as everyone benefits from the fact that you can easily sideload apps.  That was what Windows Mobile benefitted from.  Speaking of that, although I cut my teeth on the whole PocketPC/Windows Mobile thing, I was not nearly as happy with the platform as some people seemed to be.  It was just a hot mess with almost no real expandability.  Apps were extremely limited, particularly depending on which device you had.  The only niche it really enjoyed was in the enterprise.....which is clearly NOT where WP7 was focused, by Microsoft's own admission.  WM never had a hope of going beyond what it achieved.

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    I never really tried to say MS is bad compared to Android / Google. In fact I think they're miles better in support and I fled Google like the plague after experiencing some of it.

    However they're business model is totally different and they can't allow themselves this lack of support, I think. Regardless of it, the effort Microsoft must give in order to get back inside the mobile/tablet business, coming from a 1.6% share they dug themselves into, with all their image problems as Microsoft, their lack of brand recognition in the mobile world and two very good competitors like Apple and Google... I say that effor must be 400% the one given by the others. Instead, I see them as too relaxed and slacking. It was very clearly stated MS put everything they had behind the WP7 project. Doesn't seem to me, until now. We might be waiting for something explosive and different with Mango/Nokia but I seriously doubt it.

    I cherish your view of Android as something that evolved in a miriad of problems. I think however, that only partially true and Android will stay on top of the mobile game at least for some other 10 years.

    Regarding this thought of yours:

    "As for WP7, it seems incongruous to see that developers, generally, favor the tools that Microsoft has provided yet you're saying they are unacceptable.  You say that developers are leaving by the droves, yet we also keep hearing how developers are embracing the tools, etc., in support of Mango.  I'm not suggesting both CAN'T be happening, but one wonders about the context."

    I gather you are not in touch of the dev environment ? I can clarify this. People, like me, flock to using MS tools because they're the best in business, by far. I've always mantained that and praised whoever is behind C#, VS, (yes you David :) ) Silverlight, etc.

    But that's only half part of the equation. I've spent probably 2/3 of the time programming and 1/3 struggling with publishing apps on the marketplace or remeding some mistake the app hub team made. Like making my (and other people) apps totally disappear multiple times. Like having a newly published app not appearing in the 'new' section until it's too late. Like putting out ads (paying for them) while the marketplace ranking froze for 2 weeks (so making those money go down the drain) and not listening to warnings about it.

    MS has been very good at putting out their only 'good' number they have: developers. Not phone sold to shops, or users, just dev count. Which is quite easy to do if you lump together a ton of developers who never put out an app and only registered for different reasons or those that are totally dormient. Agreed the app count is good, but then again, if they don't put a lid on spam, like EVERYBODY among real devs is asking, and seeing 100 cloned app coming out every week from the same developer (which drown your new app)... of course you can brag about app count !!

    Just to sum this long-winded rant: people lost BIG money and a ridiculous amounts of time following platform problems, which are actually still there and for which there was no compensation and many times, not even acknowledgement.

    There is one part which I totally agree with you (not saying I totally disagree with the rest, mostly just two different experiences): the airplane part. They are far behind schedule, if they wanted to have a finished product with MANGO (not with NoDo). IE9 was my biggest hope. It's a piece of junk in many ways, from compatibility, speed in many javascript heavy websites, interface (ie8 was miles better, tabs, menus, etc). Facebook and other stuff, some of which was available 4 years ago with WinMo, is still either incomplete or totally absent. Business users are totally on hold until WP8 (at least).

    That converges with my (different) idea they either can't run fast enough or they're not willing to do it. Regardless, I fear Android will be too strong and Apple will stay where it is if they don't pick up the pace and understand the difference between this and an xbox...

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    @tsrbike - I agree what I've provided can be considered anedoctal stories. However they're only a small part of what I've experienced, as I don't see fit reporting issues here in this blog, and more importantly, I'm far from being alone in this. I've heard many many people having similar problems and the app hub forum gets more and more filled by annoyed posts by the day, with the usual crescendo ending up in people going back to ios. And you're probably right to give them the benefit of the doubt and 50/50 chances if - as a user - you haven't experienced much more than the update debacle.

    That for me is however a more evident side of the shortcomings that can drag wp7 in the grave, or actually that can hinder wp7 from crawling out of the grave it's already in. At 1.6% US share in mobile phones (and this includes old winmo devices), having been overtaken by Bada and having shipped 1/5 of the expected devices, I can't help but see wp7 as currently very badly positioned.

    One point that always worries me is that they think they can pull a xbox here. Like -you know- hitting the same wall endlessly and pouring money in it for years, until it turns around and they start to earn something out of it, as well as winning market share. That won't work in the ultra-fast mobile world, I'm afraid, it's too late for that strategy to work and there are far too many competitors.

    In the long period it's obviously hard to say what will happen. No matter how many people you see bi***ing about their android phone, 60% of the new phones bought by my friends were android, even crappy models, just because it's what works now in shops. The rest is 35% iphones. Oh and a 5% blackberry. Yes, not a single person knows about wp7, besides the fact that I carry one and show it to many people, I'm the only one doing it, and the non-tech-savvy person forgets what it is (or doesn't understand it) the second it's out of their sight. It's already hard to make them understand there is a different between a Samsung Omnia 7 and Samsung Galaxy S II.

    Regarding the apologies, again I see what you mean and I have another point of view given different experiences. We'll see, but for now, even without those experiences, I feel Mango lacks too many features and is too rushed. Yes it might have 500 new features, but that's only because NoDo lacked half the stuff WinMo had.

    What google has done (buying moto) will probably do nothing in the short period other that re-enforce their patent portfolio, I think. We'll see, but it also might speak for the fact they felt cut out of the hardware side, like MS felt it was with the VoIP platform before buying skype.

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts


    FWIW, I don't read Thoratt very much and I'm not him.  That was mere coincidence ;).  Also, total agreement, but I'm not sure Google can prevent the fragmentation of Android unless they stop making it Open soruce.  I think Brandon Watson Nailed it, Google is dumping android in an attempt to drive traffic to Gmail, Search, etc.  Any other company would be nailed for this but as Raymond Chen pointed out in 2005:

    That being said, The "We are TabCo" campaign is finally over, and Anticlimatic to say the least (even their CEO seemed half asleep).  But what came out of this that is odd (and possibly bad for Google) is that someone took the Android kernal, stripped it of everything and made an OS out of it.  What's left is a device that is nominonally android (and can run Android apps) but is no longer tethered to Google (in fact Fusion Garage used Bing as the onboard search).

    So now the OS is even more fragmented than before.  But Google just got axed from it as well.  "Begin the OS wars have"

  • Yes, I was reading about the Google purchase of Motorola this morning.  I wonder if their goal is to have a definitive "Android Phone", instead of just devices running a version of Android.  And, if so, what will happen with all the other OEMs?  Microsoft failed with the "AT&T is our premiere partner" approach.  Now they hooked up with Nokia, but aren't divorcing themselves from the other OEMs.  So, there's still no "Microsoft Phone".  Of course, by setting pretty stringent minimum specs they've created a more consistent hardware execution without actually producing their own phone (I'm not touching what we all know about the huge fail with NOT owning the hardware).  

    But here's how I see this shaking out.  First, I tend to agree with @tsrblke, who happens to be echoing a similar postulation that Paul Thurrott expressed, regarding how much more Android can hold its post given the business model.  Android is truly fragmented and its currently an illusion that there is a consistency from their smartphones to the tablets.  However, if Google really does intend to take on fragmentation head-on, the only solution I see is either pick up Microsoft's approach or Apple's approach.  That's the only way I see that succeeding.  Unfortunately, this will negatively impact some of the customization capability that many Android fans like.  And it begins to limit the degree of variety.

    So, this will be interesting.

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts

    Sorry for the double post, but it appears Google is getting ready to attack Android fragmentation head on:

    This is an interesting move, and could change much. (Or it could do nothing.)

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts


    I wouldn't say you've run circles around my argument, unless those got left out of either of your replies.  What you have done is provided anecodotal stories.  Scuba has questioned those (If I read him correctly).  I'll take you at your word on those.  And if so, it's definitely a pending disaster.  I've said before that I worry MS is chasing away developers by some of their actions (baking so much into the OS for example).  The lack of a good way to get apps advertised is another problem.

    But on the other hand Scuba is right with his airplane analogy.  I'll never understand why MS does that,  but they do seem to have a habit of launching things before prime time then working on after market support to bring them up to snuff.  This model failed the Zune horribly (even if the final output was a really great PMP).  The WP7 i think is still too young to guess how it will affect them.  My anecdotal stories are that android is reaching it's zenith.  I've got a lot of friends angry at the horrific fragmentation (like the fact that some apps only work on certain phones), and strange OS quirks (like the fact that the phones boot like a computer complete with that lag time while all your background programs start.  Or that Skype still doesn't always work on your front facing camera, unless your lucky enough to have 2.3.  ).  Several of them are about to jump back to ifruit devices.  There's an opening here for MS if they can claim it.  Given the cycle of cell phone contracts, I'd say it's maybe a 2 year window before things solidify up again.  I think MS is better positioned right now than RIM.  It's not going to be easy, this is a group that was burned by new technology before (i.e. android) but that also isn't so caught in apple's net that they'll mindlessly move back to it.

    As for the apologies, maybe I'm just seeing eveything through rose colored glasses, but I still see this as all part of the same big problem.  Every problem we've seen (Focus 1.4 revisions, the delays in 7392, etc.) all trace back to their original failed update plan.  There really hasn't been a big update to be released since NoDo, so we haven't had a chance to see what they've learned.  For better or worse this big update is Mango.  This is the first time they'll have the chance to reset and go with whatever they've learned.  Honestly, I give it 50/50 that it's successful (measured by lack of significant failures.  A hiccup here and there, some people will always have problems, etc.).  But I'm not willing to count it out until then.

  • Mango RTM disappointing as regards Outlook Categories and group management

    Hi Eric,

    I have just read that the new Mango RTM had been leaked.

    If what I read is true, I am then very, very disappointed with contacts management: I thought I would be finally able to manage my contacts based on my Outlook categories, just as I used to do with my old HTC Touch Pro (to which I only had to add a tiny application to en1able group messaging - WM 6 old good days...).

    Not only it is not the case (Mango does not sync the Outlook categories) - which implies setting up one's groups one by one ! - but the groups are limited to 20 contacts only. On top of that, Mango only syncs a single Outlook contacts folder.

    Question: will Microsoft finally pay attention to its professional users and address their needs?

    It is really odd that a Windows based device does not support one of the main functionalities of contact management under Exchange!

    I hope it is still time to include this major functionalitiy in the current RTM.



  • ScubaDog
    141 Posts

    @andycted, just how well is Google doing in that arena with Android?  HORRIBLY.  As much as you hate Microsoft's performance with all of this, Android is worse.  It has a crappy OS that is gmented all over the place and people get even nastier complaining about when this update or that will be available.  You can't compare Apple because they own the who shooting match.  You get one flipping device.  I'm not excusing Microsoft.  I'm saying it's a lame argument to jump all over Microsoft when it's not any better with Android.  And, I can't help noticing that Android devices are still growing by leaps and bounds despite the fact that it's an uncoordinated, disjointed operating system across a plethora of devices.  Yet enough users seem to be okay with that to keep it on top.  So, I wouldn't say that WP7 can be counted out in spite of all this.  For most users, you know what got them interested?  Marketing.  Android has a cute little mascot and their commercials grabbed you.  They made the iPhone look....tame.  People chased after the image rather than any real comprehension of the OS or the devices.  On the developer side, the big attraction is that it can be hacked to pieces.  It's open source, largely, and so you do with it want you can imagine and what you have skills to do.  The result?  Inconsistency and fragmentation.  Great customization, but it's chaos.  As for WP7, it seems incongruous to see that developers, generally, favor the tools that Microsoft has provided yet you're saying they are unacceptable.  You say that developers are leaving by the droves, yet we also keep hearing how developers are embracing the tools, etc., in support of Mango.  I'm not suggesting both CAN'T be happening, but one wonders about the context.

    What wasn't shared, but would be good information to know, was the meat of the direct discussion with the Microsoft team.  That might provide insight to what's going on in their camp at the moment, and what it might hint at as how future relations with developers might go.

    Listen, I don't think WP7 was ready for prime time when it launched, either from a consumer perspective or developer.  I think they are literally building the airplane while it's in the air.  This likely means they'll be concentrating more on keeping the plane airborne than getting passenger service up to snuff.  Horrible way to run something, but not unprecedented.  What developers and consumers have to decide is if they want to hold on for dear life until the plane is finished or grab a chute and bail.  Personally, I think this plane, even partially built, is better than the Android or iPhone experience, and I'm will to ride this thing to the next airport.  I reserve the right to change my mind later, of course, but the benefits far outweigh the failings as far as I'm concerned.

    And, SPEAKING or failings....I just read that certion HTML file upload boxes do NOT work in IE9 with Mango.  Facebook was used as an example, and apparently you can't upload things when the boxes come up in IE9.  The people who noticed this saw it through all builds of Mango, and they'd hoped it would eventually be fixed.  Apparently, even in 7720 it fails.  This could be an issue, particularly if we're supposed to be able to use the cloud more.  Hopefully we'll hear more on this.

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    Sorry I probably made circles around your argument but never really replied.

    Any degree of admitting failure, expressed once in a while, then followed up by more and more failures, remains to me just a civil apology. Which is very nice to hear and maybe speaks for the human stature of people behind it, but does very little to change things in a business. Failure followed by success, even without apologies, is almost an apology in itself. Failure followed by one semi apology and by more failure and unresponsiveness, drives people away.

    There were many interwoven issues of users and devs which have been confronted in the wrong way, in my opinion. Microsoft is big and you could actually talk about multiple sub companies, but they're pretty much linked by their lack of understanding of the final user. Apple is king in this, and google has a business model that favours it.

    I was very happy to see Microsoft "talking" to users in a dedicated blog, only to find out they just talk, not listen or answer most of the times, at least regarding important issues, like the update, the market spam, etc

    I think they once more are running short in dealing and selling to the consumer market, and I'm also worried this mobile market is closing down so fast, they're out of time if they keep screwing like they're doing now. So, yes apologies once in a couple of months are better than none, but won't do any good if they keep messing up every other week and not answering people concerns

  • andycted
    43 Posts


    You're right I'm lumping here together issues and situations not directly or visibly related to the failed updates. However, what I've seen since then, has been a worrisome continuous lack of:

    • target goal achievement

    • timeframe achievement

    • professionaly and timely support

    • reliability in the tools and services provided


    And yes, the majority of these cases relate to the dev environment

    and for every single mistake, or problem, when there has been some sort of apology or acknowledgement, it was close to worthless because the problem kept happening time and time again. The absymal communication (dev support system has been broken or unreliable for months ) naturally makes it worse.

    You could say this doesn't relate to the end user, and while that's only half true, there have been many shortcomings in the end user experience too, not last a whole bunch of unfinalized products in mango (ie9, Facebook, video mms, etc).

    Anyway even leaving that alone, I'm a user and a dev and if I sum both experiences the outlook is dismal at best.

    I've had the privilege to talk directly to the team and get out some ranting, but MS and WP7 are big beasts and need much more than a single dev to move them, rightly so.

    And I'm not referring to the enormous lost revenue, me and other devs have experienced and are experiencing because of their mistakes and problems. That's annoying but bearable if the outlook looks solid

    here everything from marketing, to updates, to support, to the dev section, seems shaky. As a user this worries me

    as a developer, it makes me wonder if the ton (not joking) of devs who have been fed up and left in the last couple of months (and I'm in touch with many of them) have done the right choice. I'm starting to ask many of them how hard was the transition, i would never have thought doing that months ago.

    besides it seems the marketplace team doesn't care for "loyal" devs at all. My apps are 100% metro style and are on top of the competition, but have NEVER been featured. Sorry for the "dev rant", but that fits nicely with my feelings that these guys are acting in a very uncoordinated, random and unproductive way, both on the consumer side and the dev one

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts


    I was refering to this quote: "We know many of you are disappointed, even angry. You certainly have a right to be. We’ve fallen far short of your expectations, and our own, and for that I’m truly sorry. We didn’t set out to let you down. But it’s clear we did. Whether you’re someone who has followed our progress from the start, or are new to Windows Phone, you deserve the updates we’ve promised."

    From here:

    Does it say "We suck? Not directly.  But I'm pretty sure falling short of expectations is equivelent to failure.  Yes, this was back in March, but beating the same drum over and over again wouldn't help anything IMHO.  This is like those fights where one side just wants to keep hearing "I'm sorry" over and over again.  Personally, what's done is done, I want to see how the next phase works.  Since they have to show me lessons learned, I don't really care what they say anyway.

    I have at least some hope that NoDo mistakes have been put behind us and we won't see the same mistakes with Mango.  7392 did go smoother for pretty much everyone but Focus users (which I am in that group).  But the Focus problem has been long seems to be at least settled now.  I'm not a fan of the choice to roll the update into Mango for Rev. 1.3 users, but I can understand the reasoning behind it at least.  Communication, while still not great, has at least moved from "Non-existant" to "noticable."  And I'm going to withhold judgement on the next phase of communication until there's actually something to communicate. (I'm not really that upset about a lack of communication between RTM and actual release, the only useful news note at this stage is "We've released it."  So not having any news to that effect means nothing has happened.)

    On Devs, your right, I'm not a Dev.  This of course is why I don't read (or comment) on the WP7 Dev blog.  If there is a stunning lack of communication between MS and Devs you're certainly right that is something to be seriously concerned about.  I don't want to see WP7 go the way of the Kin, and Dev's are going to be crucial to that, so certianly hold them to a high standard there.

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    Nobody admitted screwing up the first update. All we got was a "we learned a lot". Some replies included mentioning that "learning a lot" was a success. Promising something Like unified, undelayed, direct updates, then completely failing to provide them should be considered failure.

    This alone would be worrisome but not tragic. However I've seen a lack of reliability, support and communication (with devs) which completes the picture for me

    what bothers me is their "we have excuses for failing" attitude, "so trust us, it was the best possible outcome, we're doing are best, etc etc"

    To me it means they're either not up to the task or they're screwing it up.

    I agree the 'generic' we, instead of 'I' is misleading, however trust me I've heard tons of people with my sentiment. Granted we've not all experienced the same (and most people here are not devs) and someone will have different ideas !

  • tsrblke
    327 Posts


    I don't ever recall them saying NoDo distribution was a "success."  When they finally started rolling out Focus 1.4 revisions I think they are starting to realize that tehy need to lean on AT&T to get things out faster (and in this case they did).

    Also, they may have burned my patience, but not all of it. I still love the WP7 platform and interface and still support it.  So when you're busy speaking gross generalizations it's best not to assume you speak for all of us.

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    actually the only thing you showed "you learned" so far, is to tell us even less and ignore us even more.

    Technically, you consumed every bit of patience and faith your best supporters had.

    If you general public doesn't get interested in your platform before you have burned every single early adopter, you are in deep trouble

    The best part about this blog is that we can say what we want, since we can assume this guy doesn't read our comments as he never replied to a single one (despite the PR talk)

  • andycted
    43 Posts

    "you learned a lot". How about admitting it was a failure ?

    Obviously, if you screw this one too, you're done. As usual I would like to be contradicted by facts, but I don't expect nothing but delays to early 2012 for most phones. What else should one expect from people calling the nodo update "a success" ?

  • @ScubaDog   Are you actually Eric?

  • Well, hopes for a 1 Sep roll on Mango were dashed at 1:20 this morning when Joe Belfiore tweeted "#mango Sept 1? Just a rumor."

    <sigh>  So much for all those "multiple sources" people were posting about.

  • @ ScubaDog - Weak arguments dude, very weak!

  • Actually, @mahdihaj, I'll be very disappointed if Microsoft allows the OEMs to release the new devices before the updates are rolling for those of us who already have devices.  That's likely what WILL happen, but I'll be disappointed nonetheless.  If that happens, and if there's a device available with 32GB of storage or more, I may take the bait and buy it anyway.

    @PHONEY, I don't think we can start complaining to AT&T until we start seeing other US carriers starting to roll.  I'd like to think that, with all the trouble they had regarding the Focus, they'd have their part of the process down, but I'm not holding my breath.  

    Now, with the rumors starting that Microsoft with "launch" or "release" Mango on 1 Sep, we're left with wondering how accurate that is and how the heck Microsoft defines the words "launch" and "release".  Paraphrasing one of my favorite movies, "you keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means".

  • @Eraserhead, you BET I'm getting into the semantics.  Words mean things.  "Customer Experience Engineering".  Come ON, people.  How on earth do you get "customer satisfaction" out of that?  It makes more sense that it means "engineering what the user experiences regarding WP7".  The experience using a WP7 device is quite different from the experience in iOS or Android is.  I can totally be about paying attention to what the experience of using WP7 is without caring a flip about whether the customer is satisfied WITH that experience.  In fact, judging by what some folks have posted, they clearly prefer the WP7 experience to be much more like Android.  Frankly, if I wanted to avail myself of an Android-like user experience I'd get an Android.  And, yes, @BuckeyeTico, I'm making assumptions here, too.  But I'd wager my interpretation of the job title is closer to correct than yours.  We'll have to agree to disagree on that, I guess.

    While I'm not sure that it's true that @Eric has "never" responded, why does that necessarily matter?  It's doubtful that he totally ignores what's posted here even if he never responds.  When my wife complains about her day I learned LONG ago to simply sit there and quietly listen.  I don't nod, I don't try to suggest solutions, I don't do anything other than listen.  We certainly get responses from some of the other WP7 crew, even if we don't like them.  Believe me, I think Microsoft has a long way to go in the communication arena, though I acknowledge there has been some improvement.  And while we all have bad days...or bad weeks, even...I don't think you can expect to persuade someone to respond better when you ARE condescending or insulting.  I certainly wouldn't be inclined to bend over backwards to help someone treating me that way.  I'm in no way excusing the particular practices or methods of communication Microsoft has been using, particularly when it's clear they fall short of customer expectations.  But if you insist on shooting the messenger, make sure you're shooting the right one.  Regardless of title, notice that @Eric posted that he's been the one dropping by to bring the latest on updates for the phones.  That's pretty much it.  I wouldn't say there should BE much more expectation than that.  Some of you are insisting he should be doing more.  And, as angry and frustrated as the makes almost ALL of us, he's probably saying all that he's allowed to say.  I don't like it---I'd like a LOT more info.  I don't have an unrealistic expectation that he should be responding to my complaints, though.  His job where THIS BLOG is concerned may be nothing more than the equivalent of posting a note on the door.

  • mahdihaj
    30 Posts

    hope all branded phones won't be waited for getting update at the same time as the free market phones !

  • Oh and @Eric don't let the haters get to ya. I think you do a good job and I understand it is not easy.

  • Great news. Can't wait till Mango!

  • Hawk
    61 Posts

    I've decided to stop complaining and just accept things for the way they are.  The update/upgrade process is a thousand times worse for Android phones and obviously the Apple update is fairly smooth considering they have ONE AT&T phone and ONE Verizon phone (not including other Apple devices in this comment because we're here talking about phones) AND most importantly, they don't have to wait on the carriers to push out their updates!  

    I also believe that Microsoft understands that they need to improve the update/upgrade process but they're not 100% responsible either.  So for your sanity, I would highly suggest that all the haters out there either get over it or buy another phone with a different OS!  

    I had an iPhone for a few years.  I got tired of the Apple "we're almighty attitude"  and no real changes to their phones so I chose to go with WP7.  I like my phone now without Mango and I will like my phone even more once Mango is released.

    Now Microsoft better do everything in it's power to make sure the Mango release is smooth for all the phones they support or once my service agreement expires, I'll find a phone with a new OS.  

    You see, that's the power we all have over Microsoft...if they cannot produce a high quality product, we can all buy something else!

  • Can we start complaining about AT&T not releasing the update yet!!!

  • @ GoodThings2All – I am not sure where all the “tirade” and “ranting” that you are talking about, is coming from? Please read below what I originally posted:

    • ‘LMAO - Since WHEN you have been actively posting here? Don't worry mate, you won't be missed.  That's why we got Michael here... Go and do your thing, whatever that might be!

    If we are going to move forward and overcome the economical disaster the world is experiencing now, we need to start changing the “poor thing” culture.  

    Spend some time reading some of our first nice comments/questions/inquiries posted here for him (about 6 months ago) and you will find out that Eric has always ignored them.  All he does is to stop by every blue moon to report basically “nothing substantial” and provide lame excuses for his shortcomings.  On the other hand, even though Michael doesn’t have full power –I assume, to change this faulty update/upgrade process, he shows interest and respect for our concerns.  A couple steps below are Brian and some other female manager (which name I forgot).

    May be I am too critical and straight forward, but I feel that someone has to tell him how many of us feel about his performance.  Time will tell…

  • westv555
    17 Posts

    So we will see you on September 1st then?

  • jacksg
    4 Posts

    All the way!! Can't wait for Mango...

    Hope to hear from you soon!! =)

  • Sweet, real excited about this.

  • @ ScubaDog – First of all, the “Manager of Customer Satisfaction” title is a mock of what his real title is –darn dog, you don’t know the latest thing called sarcasm? Second, 90% of what we ALL say here are assumptions, including yours.  Of course I don’t know the specific job description and the objectives placed on him –got news for you… neither do you!

    Now, based on your definition (I would call it an assumption though), GM (which I believe stands for General Manager –do you agree?) Customer Experience Engineering is the person in charge of a team responsible of the Customer Experience aspects of the OS.  Let’s assume for a minute (here I go again with this word) that your definition is right, don’t you think that these ASPECTS of the OS that are strictly related to the EXPERIENCE the CUSTOMERS are having with the platform should deliver positive CUSTOMER SATISFACTION?

    Therefore, and based on what I have read on his posts, to ME he is in charge of the team that is responsible of the testing, deploying, delivery to OEM and carriers and troubleshooting of the OS.  Of course I am sure he does other stuff that we don’t know –including you.  But unless you are “secretly” working in his team, we ALL are guilty of making ASSUMPTIONS here.  The difference is that some of us tend to be more critical and less condescending as opposed to OTHERS that are responsible for MASSAGING the Customer Experience Engineering team.

  • @ScubaDog - You are getting into semantics of customer experience vs. satisfaction.  The fact of the matter is that Eric has never responded directly to this blog.  And his posts are filled with lame comments like "we won't rest until this is done" or we're "putting our heads down".  The word "customer" is in his title and he does not relate well with his customers.  I have no idea what the word "Engineering"  means in his job title.

    The bottom line is that it would behoove MS to replace him with someone who better relate to the customers on this blog (again,  la Michael).

  • @688, you apparently didn't carefully read the other threads that did, in fact, explain the device-specific updates.  If you assumed there would be an all-inclusive list of every tweak each device would get, then you assumed incorrectly.  I understood perfectly what the posts said.  As for demanding the recitation of what lessons were learned, that's just an exercise in being pompous.  I'd imagine they learned whatever they learned that would help make the mechanics of the process smoother.  Just because many of us cannot stand the fact that carriers (I'm on AT&T) are just plain clueless and user-spiteful when it comes to their part to play in the process doesn't mean the process "completely broken".  Most got all the updates that were released to their devices.  If it were completely broken most would NOT.  BTW, before you go there, just because we 1.3 Focus owners didn't received the 7392 update it doesn't mean the process itself was broken---it means it wasn't released to us.  It's being held over to go with Mango---which actually makes sense given the attention is now 100% on getting Mango ready to roll.  I don't agree at all with the way the carriers have such a large hold on when stuff rolls out.  I think Microsoft should put carriers in their place as simply avenues to sell devices and a method of connectivity.  But, the reality is, until WP7 can have the kind of clout that Apple has with the iPhone, Microsoft has to placate the carriers.  Once they (hopefully) can get carriers to beg to carrier a WP7 device, then Microsoft can fully dictate the terms.

  • @BuckeyeTico, you're asking a question about a job for which you don't know the position description or what objectives the supervisor placed on @Eric.  Just because the job title, "Manager of Customer Satisfaction" (which isn't what his title says, BTW, but "GM, Customer Experience Engineering"), seems to mean to YOU that he's responsible for massaging customers doesn't mean that's what the position is required to do by Microsoft.  You're making an assumption.  However, "Customer Experience Engineering" to ME means that he's responsible for managing the team that's designing the customer experience aspects of the OS---not the customer "satisfaction".  So, I urge folks to not assume they know what @Eric's job is.

  • balu
    1 Posts

    Thats g8.. Yesterday, I dreamt that my WP7 gets updated to Mango.. By the time it crossed 25% , I woke up :)

  • hades32
    21 Posts

    Guys, he is talking about TECHNICAL lessons learned. This (hopefully) should mean, that every phone should get it at them same time for instance...

    Nobody who has contracts with mobile operators can just "skip" them. It sucks, but that doesn't work.

    (If you really, really want an update just search for "registry unbranding" in the XDA forums...)

  • Krush You
    94 Posts

    You guys are something else...first you complain when they give a date and it gets delayed - so now they are being cautious and saying it's coming and we will let you know

  • cmwind
    71 Posts

    i don't want to just be a negative voice so I will try to phrase this as constructively as possible. So far the only thing it looks like Windows Phone team has learned is to pretend to communicate with us (passing along as little valuable information as possible). In conjunction with this faux communication the other lesson learned is to tell us as very little as possible... so no timeframes at all. SO here comes the positive part. I would love to be proven wrong on both accounts. First I would love a post detailing some of the efforts made by MS to improve this process with the carriers and OEMs (after all Samsung royally messed up with both their hardware and their firmware so lets give credit where credit is due). Second I would love to be proven wrong by a timely, efficient, problem free Mango role out. Honestly, November is to late. I am not saying that in the context that the platform will die (although a late role out will not help). I am simply saying MS does not want to go burning their best advocates twice in less than 12 months. Anyways those are my thoughts.

    Also hurry up and show off some devices already MS. Hope we don't have another year where you launch 9 devics all at once. Android does so well because it stays in the consumer mind due to constant reporting on new phones and new software. WP team did a nice job stretching out the Mango news. The same stretching needs to be applied to hardware releases. Maybe announce like the first 3 new phones together and then show off more as time goes on

  • KR
    503 Posts

    @Karan Singh

    I'm not a troll,I just voice my opinion

  • It would be nice to hear what changes to the process have been implemented to address the lessons learned.

  • Sheeds
    205 Posts

    Two words......Finger Crossed!  Loving Mango Beta! :D

  • @BuckeyeTico ... I never said you shouldn't be upset. I never suggested you shouldn't voice frustration. But what purpose does your tirade against one man serve? What do you want-- for him to continue posting the kind of unhelpful updates you're ranting about or for him to be "heads down right now, putting all our energy into preparing for this major update"? You could have come here and posted, "Spend more energy cracking the whip on these carriers and make them honor their part of your agreements!" Gets your point across of wanting your updates in a timely manner and doesn't insult a man you don't even know. Instead you come on here yelling at someone and come off sounding like a two year old throwing a tantrum in a shopping store aisle because his parents won't buy a pack of candy.

  • a688
    27 Posts

    "And if there’s something important that needs to be addressed, we will"

    1) Can you tell us what you and your team learned from the earlier (completely broken) process? [I'm guessing the only thing learned is "the less we tell people, the better"]

    2) Where is the list of device specific updates? What version of software (boot loader/radio/whatever) should I have on my phone/expect to receive soon? [If you are constantly working with your "partners" then this info should be relatively easy for you to get.]

  • @ GoodThings2Life – OK then, please tell us how we can possibly be more “civil” in the way we respond to someone who evidently hasn’t yet be able to satisfactorily fulfill his duty as a Manager of Customer Satisfaction.  

    So, do you think that because he stops by every blue moon to basically say the same thing over and over, including today that the only thing new was that “he was going to be away” until Mango was ready to be delivered to all users, we should be thankful and pad him on his back?

    Trust me, what we write to show our dissatisfaction is not even close to being offensive, rude and hateful.  We just state the facts… Please prove us wrong!

  • dkb1898
    167 Posts

    Prepare well, your future depends on it!

  • Yikes, the rancior is assaulting.  @ChrisLynch, if you paid attention they already announced a bit ago that 7392 for us 1.3 Focus owners would be bundled with the next update.  Common sense would indicate that means Mango.  I think it's fair to assume that the thought is that, given the resources needed to execute another update made it more reasonable to simply hold off until Mango.  Frustrating as the whole wait while the fix was being worked for the 1.4 Focus owners, I'm okay with waiting for the bundled update.

    I don't hold the same contempt some seem to have for you, @Eric Hautala.  Thanks for the post, which I'll infer to mean you are starting to receive feedback from the OEMs and carriers and are incorporating those items into the update.  Based on how accelerated (relatively speaking) things seem to have been going with Mango lately, I'll guess that we might see the announcement of the first device on the first carrier in about a month---again, a guess.  

    @David V. Kimball, I don't know that I'd be reverting back just yet.  Remember, depending on your device and your carrier, and based on how that previous updates worked, yours may be one of the last to get updated (I know mine was).

  • I find it offensive that a few of you would be so incredibly and personally rude and hateful to someone who is taking time to communicate with us. I understand you may not have the communication you're looking for yet, but you can at least make an effort to be civil in your dissatisfaction.

    @Eric... I believe the general sentiment of Windows Phone users is that if your team has truly learned lessons from the NoDo updates, I hope it is this lesson-- push your carriers more. Set deadlines and hold them accountable-- especially AT&T here in the US.

  • @Kenny Rawlins is just a troll.

  • That's nice Eric.  So, I guess with the lack of the 7392 update for the Samsung Focus being released, we will never see that update until Mango?  So, how have you learned from these mistakes?  You may not want to state anything, but I point to what Amazon S3 did when their infrastructure had that major outage earlier in the year.  They came out full disclosure, and stated what went wrong, and what they did to address it would be mitigated if it were to happen again.  I truly hope you really concider taking the same approach, but I won't hold my breath.

    I just hope you have more pull against carriers like AT&T to get Mango out quickly.

  • brianm76
    61 Posts

    You know, we are all witnessing history in the making right here....right now.  We will look back and see this as one of the posts that started it all...the inevitable delay into 2012 to get Mango!

  • KR
    503 Posts

    BTW, he says they have learned a lot from the past update,what a big lie,if they learned something then they wouldn't make the release of mango depend on the carriers and OEMs timeframe.i know the OEMs will make it on time,actually I think they are ready,but carriers as usual will screw up


    actually you can go on vacation forever,I don't care,Michael,Brian and Kristina got our backs

  • KR
    503 Posts you're right,actually I think thats the most interesting post he has ever made.

  • Happy Dance I can't wait for Mango!

  • Sounds great. Guess I should be reverting my phone back to NoDo soon to get Mango non-beta...

  • LMAO - Since WHEN you have been actively posting here? Don't worry mate, you won't be missed.  That's why we got Michael here... Go and do your thing, whatever that might be!