All Updated Windows Phones Are Not Alike

All Updated Windows Phones Are Not Alike

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Yesterday, Eric announced that there would be a new update for Windows Phone. You can read his post to see what all is included, but I wanted to focus on a specific issue: phones “updated” using any unofficial mechanisms.

Despite the fact that many people have claimed that an unofficial update mechanism worked fine for them, we cautioned that phones which were updated via this method were not going to be able to update past build 7390. Unfortunately for those customers out there who acted on information from sources outside of Microsoft, the rubber meets the road today.

With Windows Phone update build 7392 going out to phones via the official update mechanism, those people who have used the unsupported method of forcing 7390 onto their phones will find that their phones will not update to 7392. With the official update process there is a requirement that the package on the phone also be official in order to update itself.

Phones updated via the unsupported method do not contain an official image and cannot be updated further at this time. Due to scheduling of engineering resources, we did not anticipate having to undue the changes made to phones by these unsupported methods. While we are not ruling out having a fix in the future, for now there is no fix.

Since this is a developer blog, let’s get a little technical about what is going on. The best way to think about this is that with regard to updating, the phone is a state machine. When the state machine is in proper working order, updates can happen via the official channel no problem. When an unofficial program uses undocumented APIs to force an update, things can go awry. In this case, the unofficial process performed an incomplete update. As such, the state machine was changed - not updated, changed.

When we test our update process, we test against a known state machine. Further, as a health protection mechanism, the phone will always try to recover from an error state (as in an incomplete update), and will begin doing things to solve for the fact that it is in an unknown state. This is the reason why phones started downloading OEM updates after forcing the update via this unofficial tool. It’s also the reason why people who used the unofficial tool to get to 7390 reported that their phones later updated to 7390 via the Zune PC software. The state machine looked more like pre-7390 than it did 7390. However, because of the existence of some of the 7390 bits on the phone, and the fact that the 7390 update process was not intended to run against this a priori unknown state machine, the result was an incomplete 7390 update.

If you have a phone that was updated using this unofficial tool, and you attempt to update to 7392 from the Zune software, you will get the error code 80180048. Zune is the only official way to update the operating system on the phones. The mobile operators purchase Windows Phones from the manufacturers, and they are the ones who are authorized to flash phones for the mobile operator. The mobile operator store locations are not capable of flashing phones on-site with an original OS image, which means that you will most likely have to return to a store and submit your phone for a manufacturing return. However, because of this known error code, it is up to the mobile operators as to what they want to do with your phone.

We understand that this isn’t ideal. Unfortunately, our engineering priorities are focused on improving the process by which updates get to Windows Phone, issuing the security update you just got and working to getting Mango to market. Undoing this specific problem was not in our schedule.

However, the creators of the unsupported tool are a clever bunch, and wanted to get a timely fix created for customers who have put their phones into this state. They believe they have created a way to get these phones back on the officially supported path. We will work with them to validate their solution and applaud the team for taking responsibility to do this.

I personally feel really bad for customers who find themselves with phones which are now stuck. Again, I can’t promise a fix right now, but if you want to share your experience and let us know how your phone is behaving as a result of this external tool impacted my email is brwatson@microsoft.com. I only ask that you please be constructive.

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  • в мене така проблема встановив руску мову перестав оновлюватись телефон , видає помилку 80180048,

    що робити , як перепрошити девайс в домашніх умовах , допоможіть будь-ласка .

  • Erny
    5 Posts

    Have updated in unauthorized way. Thanx hackers, they do windows phone support work much better, than Microsoft does.

    Log analysis show that previous update via Zune does not include appropriate language packs, so update fails. Seems Microsoft is flooded by WP7 bugs and no have enough time to  fix it. This make WP7 hard to win race with iPhone.

  • Erny
    5 Posts

    Updating from 7.10.7740.16 to 7.10.8107.79

    Few times update fails with 80180048

    Support tool doesn't work

    previous updates comes with no error

  • Thanks for this. You have an new customer: http://www.mcs-webdesign.de

  • I don't want to seem like an Apple Fanboy where the mothership could upload dog poop to the phone and the loyal base would applaud, but Windows Phone isn't Android and Microsoft is running the show. Sure you might think us weenies because we'll follow the company line for updates. If you want to hack the s**t out of something, get a Droid. Otherwise, let Microsoft drive the damn car and enjoy the scenery.

  • Being a Newbie here, I've read about this unofficial upgrade and its problems, however, I would like to see a post alerting Newbies as to what to look for to avoid this situation. I see references to a Mr. Walsh, and "Walshed phones", but I want to know how to avoid falling into this abyss.

    I've had my Samsung Focus for about one week and am very satisfied. I am a patient person and willing to wait for official updates!

    I've just installed the tools for programming for the platform and hope to travel up the learning curve quickly.

    Thanks for your concern for all users and developers.

    David

  • Bob
    2 Posts

    Why are all the Mango code samples in C#?

  • Ark-kun
    18 Posts

    My Omnia 7 is still at 7004 (didn't use unofficial tools)

    Zune still says there are no updates.

    Thank you Microsoft, for screwing me and leaving my phone without security and functionality updates.

  • Windows Phone is an interesting platform to program for I'd love to try it. But the Carrier upgrade cycle is also a distraction. I currently have an Android Nexus-S purchased unlocked supported by Google that is compatible with the AT&T network, simply moved my SIM card from an old AT&T smart phone to the Nexus-S and everything works beautifully, hence updates are at the discretion of Google not the carrier. Couldn't Microsoft offer a similar dev phone that operates independent of the Carrier and gets its updates direct from Microsoft?

  • Korn1699
    114 Posts

    So...when is Microsoft going to get around to testing Chris Walsh's tool to fix Walshed phones?  It would be nice to have that SSL update...

  • As an owner of an Omnia 7 how hasn't still gotten a single Update 7 Months after I bought my phone, I must say I am giving up on the platform, and your post doesn't change that a bit. Sorry. I was so much looking forward to its success, mainly because the development process is so much better than on the other platforms. But the lack of timely updates is a real deal breaker in this day and age of constant change and unfinished software.

  • At least Apple provides an official way of getting back to stock. Still waiting...

  • I want to thank you for the professional way in which you are handling this.  Unlike Apple, you appear to not endorse the hacking of the phone, but you are at least working to keep them from being the enemy also.  That's a sign of professionalism and class.  It makes me even more glad that I have a Windows Phone and 2 Zunes.

    Regardless, I'm glad that someone explained the reasoning behind why the Walshing of phones was not condoned.  They will get things back on track and I hope that the update process gets better as things go along so people don't need to work outside the box to update the phone.

  • Brandon, the info is much appreciated.   I used this method and was completely aware of the possible problems.  I will say this however; as the clear market loser in this horse race, you guys should be doing everything possible to keep the few customers you have happy.  Anyone who cared about the NoDo update ended up frustrated at the delays (seriously, admit it, the update process sucks and is not what your customers want) and they did what they had to do to get what they wanted (as a paying customer).

    The carriers are killing WP7 on may fronts - lack of promotion (it doesn't even show up on their homepages and is always stuck in the back corner of the store), delaying of updates, etc.  And now MS is killing the few customers who really LOVE the platform by basically turning their backs on them when they need them most.  Go beg your carrier and hope they help you out.  Thank you WP7 beta testers!

    And the community would clearly side with Chris Walsh on this one.  To tell the community you don't have the resources to figure this out, seriously?  One guy figures out a hack to get the updates but an entire team can't devote a few cycles to creating a fix.  Lovely.  Instilling yet more confidence in MS ability to advance this platform.

    Have a great day, I'm going to browse some SSL sites that are using fake certs, since my WP7 beta phone that I Walshied to the RC version of the OS (NoDo) won't warn me about the fake certs.  Later.

  • Microsoft touted its update model as one of the key advantages Windows Phones would have over Android and others, and there hasn't been nearly enough 'mea culpa' from them regarding this ongoing fiasco. In this post, they should've a) acknowledged that they've failed to deliver on one of the key promises of this platform and b) recognized that only true Windows Phone enthusiasts would've had the interest and wherewithal to even attempt the unoffical update in the first place, the very last people you want to alienate. I understand the purpose of this post from a developer standpoint, but I don't appreciate the tone (punitive rather than conciliatory) and I think that, given the fact that WP7 is a nascent platform plagued in recent months with terrible PR, Microsoft should take advantage of every opportunity to remind its loyal and trusting customers that it is on their side. At least until WP7 eclipses iOS in market share and Microsoft can afford to be as arrogant and condescending as Steve Jobs.

  • Jiihaa
    2 Posts

    The carrier "testing" is a phase I really would like to get rid off. Traditionally it's the OS/Phone manufacturers who test and guarantee the quality. Now such a small thing as certification update has become a huge circus, which should be no brainer.

    It's scary future unless the update process will change - think about all the security updates etc small updates which really don't touch the carrier network, even one memory leak fix in Office Word would take months before all the customers could get it because of this dinosaur process. I really hope that Microsoft will change the procedure and don't involve the carriers in the updates, at least the minor ones.

  • brianm76
    61 Posts

    @Eric Cosky Great point.  @Brandon Watson if Microsoft and the carriers not held up the update for as long as you did, this would not have ever been an issue. Knowing this you still gave a somewhat definitive time frame for the Mango update setting yourself up for yet another huge failure and embarrassment. Once bitten, twice shy but not for Microsoft.  I absolutely would put money on the fact that you don't meet your fall release date and if you do my guess is it will take months for most users to get it just like this much smaller update and I don't gamble.  I am certain of a win with your track record so far.  Shame on me for putting my money, time, trust, and passion my purchase of a Windows Phone only to feel like it was a huge mistake. I the phone and what it could be but the update issues, the lack of updates, and the low end hardware compared to comptitors will likely mean a non Windows Phone purchase next time.  Lucky for me, with my company discount I get 16 month upgrades instead of 2 years and 4 months have passed since my last purchase.  Unless a lot happens in a year and unless you and your team lose their arrogance, learn to communicate timely and effectively, as well as get your update issues worked out there will definitely be 1 less WIndows Phone user and you know I won't be the only one. Based on the fact that you won't give sales numbers is indication you can't afford to lose any customers yet you continue on this path.

  • @Wurstsalat willl you email me the link to the Focus Rom, My email id is " chetanmali(at)hotmail(.)com? I hope the flasher comes soon;

    Microsoft is seriously stretching it too far..........

  • I do have a quick question, what about those who used the Zune trick of cutting their data connection as Zune and the phone looked for updates and having it pop up that way. Is that an incomplete update as well?

  • @StevieBallz: You are wrong on this...i didnt walshed my phone...i have flashed an unbranded rom to get the update because i saw microsofts update process sucks on provider based roms and how i see, it will suck in future, too. Is this why i choose wp7, NO...i wanted (not as with android) a worry free updateable smartphone -> microsoft promised wp7 is exactly this, in reality it isnt...it is far away from this.

    What do you believe why people choose an unsupported way to get bugfixes which are badly needed? Because microsoft is fast as hell with the delivering of promised updates?

    Microsoft saw the updateprocess is a complete fail and they told to get it better. I see mango anouncements about "oh we hope all wp7 users can get the update till end of the year or early 2012" - in clear words, they keepin the providers in the process to slow down update delivery, so nothing will get better and customers which want the promised(!) features take the unsupported way an run in other problems. Sure they choose the way by themself but the main reason why they think about the unsupported way is that microsoft dont give them the ready to deliver updates -> its only microsoft fault that this happened in the past and it will microsoft fault that people choose this way in future and it is not compareable to jailbreak or flash custom roms on android, google did not promised to provide updates for all phones.

    So i had this (i own a wp7 device cause i believed the promises microsoft has given):

    - Android: not the best user experience but an feature complete system where i dont need so bad the updates which will come or not -> updateprocess is not as important as on wp7 at the actual situation (except security fixes)

    - iphone: Nice user experience but not as good as wp7 and feature complete -> if i get an update or not is not so important but apple delivers updates to ALL users with no problem at the same time (look they just released iOS 4.3.3), so i receive updates for ~2 years (min)....thats ok with my contract and in case of security fixes i get them without problem in no time (compared to android and wp7)

    In case of the feature complete systems above i can have apps like skype, stitching app, whatsapp and so on....

    - WP7: Best user experience but because of not useable apis for app development i cant use many applications (even microsoft apps, like photosynth, msn messenger and so on) until mango will be released. At security fixes i have to wait for my mobile provider (see text on other wp7 blog "How you get 7392 depends on your mobile operator"), this is a main megafail on the whole updateprocess and on security point of view....i dont know what microsoft is thinking at this decision.

    If i want security on my phone i can choose android or wp7 to flash them by myself -> gurantee -> bye bye....so i have to tinker on both systems which i could but dont like to. Only wide spread system which brings me a good update experience is apple....and they didnt announce a fantastic update experience and much blabla, they just do - on the other side, itunes and pain in the a** eula. Ok maybe apple is not the ideal deal but better than microsoft at the moment and what i read in future, too...maybe some other system (bada, webos) will beat them all, i think this is not that hard

    @chetanmali: sorry overread that you have an focus....too bad, looks like there is an rom but no flasher for it :/

  • Nater
    147 Posts

    Quote: "chill down... why on earth is MS responsible for an unoficial update via an unsupported tool?"

    Because leading up to the release of WP7 Microsoft did lead a lot of people to believe that the carriers would not be able to block updates.  Then, after many of us brought the phones, they came out and said Carriers can block updates.  Then the NoDo update came out, and users seen first hand just how crappy the update process is.  Buggy phones with apparently the wrong RTM firmware on them.  Updates bricking phones, etc.

    Lost of people came from Android to WP7 because they were tired of feeling like they had to either wait forever for an update, or buy a new phone for an update.

    WP7 is worse off than Android because the feature disparity between it and Android/iOS is so large.  It desperately needs features, and using it instead of Android/iOS already involves making ridiculous sacrifices and in some cases accepting numerous showstoppers...  They should have at least sold one phone in the Microsoft Stores or on the Website that we could buy to avoid the carriers, IMO, similar to the Google Nexus Series.

    I must say, I don't think I'll buy another WP7 device, and while Android is not the best OS out there, the Manufacturers seem to support it a lot better than Microsoft does and they're even delivering the updates at a much better pace (and the updates actually have tons of useful stuff/bug fixes in them).

    If you want a Microsoft Phone you're better off getting an iPhone, though.  They release a lot of superior quality software for iOS and nothing for WP7 except useless apps like MSN Video and World Clock, Lol...  Can't even get a decent IM app from them for WP7, and iOS already has OneNote Mobile and Windows Live Messenger with Social Feed integrated...

    #NeverAgain

  • dkb1898
    167 Posts

    "Undoing this specific problem was not in our schedule" - So you didn't plan for problems in your schedule? Personally, waiting 6 months for an update to an incomplete OS wasn't on my schedule either when I bought this phone. Because of the lack of communication, and bungling of the update process lots of frustrated users were forced to use a hack.

    Apologies aside, you need to take responsibility for this, not make excuses. The rubber hit the road on WP7 in early 2011 when promises weren't met, confidence was lost, and users were forced to take matters into their own hands because the WP Team wasn't getting the job done...Own it, I don't want to hear more excuses or putting this on the users or Chris Walsh.

  • i used the "unsupported method of forcing to 7390" but later on i got an update called "samsung update" am i good or still in deep s***

  • curtk
    37 Posts

    It is completely reasonable that the unsupported update is, well, unsupported. Hopefully Chris will come up with a fix to get around this--he seems to be more on the ball than MS in some respects.

    MS--you should remember that all these people flocked to 'walshing' their phones because of the completely disastrous, late, mind bendingly bad way you are handling updates. You promised updates 'very very soon' at the launch event, then December, then Feb, then March, then April and almost missed that. Some people still haven't gotten those. And this for a really 'non-event' kind of update that really didn't address much. And actually now I'm starting to have a hard time with the 'its complicated, carriers, OEM's, testing, blah blah blah' excuses. If you can't manage this better and more quickly, you've already lost. And again, Apple, from discovery of an issue to patching it on the iPhone latest was less than two weeks. TWO WEEKS. And last time I checked they're on a carrier too. They must test. Yes, you have to deal with a few OEM's..but then again that's why you put out standardized guidelines for hardware!

    The reason people are trying these workarounds is because the official process is broken. Now the unofficial process is broken too. You have to get a handle on this. You built a decent platform (actually a very nice, new, fresh platform I loved) then basically let it just hang out there. We're 6-7 months in now. Apologies, great. Transparency, wonderful. Email communications, fantastic. Now get the fixes in the pipeline and get the platform out moving rather than the glacier you seem stuck in.

  • ""The mobile operators purchase Windows Phones from the manufacturers, and they are the ones who are authorized to flash phones for the mobile operator."

    So thanks for this, i am not allowed to flash my own phone? Better switch to apple, apple`s restrictions are realy bad but your restrictions are just a hard pain in my a**. When i read this i know i bought the wrong device...."

    I'm getting pretty annoyed about this as well. A quick look at XDA indicates that, at least for some phones (HTC), there is already a packaged RUU with the original shipped ROM. Just release it already lol. Is there a legitimate reason why they are refusing to do so?

    Or at least throw us a bone and release some md5 sums so we can verify the XDA stuff? (Although I don't think a locked phone will accept anything other than an official RUU_signed.nbh, right?) Does re-flashing present any problems with regard to cloud services, product keys, or genuine advantage? Just curious.

    I'm not implying that you guys care what one person does, but I'm probably going to sell my phone if this isn't resolved.

  • depend
    5 Posts

    Smart people will come up with a solution soon. The whole updating process is already slow enough. It doesn't hurt to wait a few more weeks.

  • Korn1699
    114 Posts

    If you had just released the update to everyone at once instead of letting the carriers block them, NO ONE would have used unsupported tools to get the update...

  • First of all I think it's great that Brandon is trying to keep everyone in the loop.  To the frustrated people, the outlook on the update scene is no better on Android.  You wait for months and months for an update to get it, or find out your device won't get it at all.  The OEMs and carriers decide what updates you get, if any.  At least MSFT is working hard to update all their devices with every update.  And I quite sure that they will get it worked out and it will all go smoothly in the future.  I think the wait will be worth it.  And next year when I can get a WP7 phone, didn't have CDMA devices last time around, I'll be leaning very heavilly towards WP7.  So hang in there.

  • Jiihaa
    2 Posts

    I really wish that developers would be taken into better consideratrion here. It is really annoying that there's no way to get updates before the customers get them, and we just have to spread our hands and say, sorry, we can't test our software with the new update you already have and are using.

    There should be option in the app hub for developer unlocked phones to force update on them, if there's a update available in any country for the specific model so that the devs would not have to suffer from the throttling.

  • @Wurstsalat no dude, there is no rom for Focus.

  • @wurstsalat You are plain and simply stupid, there is nothing more to say. Everyone who is rooting his android phone or was flashing his Windows Mobile Phone knew of the risks of doing so and this was in no way different. You are angry because you did the wrong thing so don't blame it on others.

    @Brandon

    Most of the criticism is correct though although people got so eager to update not mainly because of what happened after the March update started to roll out but because numerous reports suggested that Nodo would be coming in Janurary or February (although they were not official).

    Some parts of communication should systematically be improved. If a problem happens like with the Omnia 7 now, that leads to the update being halted this should be communicated in a timely fashion and not after 3 weeks when somebody asked for it because forums allowed them to find out that no one was receiving them.

    +1 for all the people asking for 7392 to be included in the Where is my update page.

  • Hi,

    I've just updated to the 7392 update and for some odd reason the marketplace has been crippled for me. I can't update any applications or download any music using my zune pass.

    I have a HD7 on O2 UK, any ideas?

    Cheers,

    Shiraz

  • TLM
    3 Posts

    thanks for announcing this. there has been quite a few individuals that tried unofficial guides of updating their phones.

    looks like that explains the quirks happening on their phones now. some reported it worked on their phones and others mentioned it didn't work or it had problems.

    not i'll now what to do when i get my wp7 phone :) "stick to the official process"

  • Brandon,

    Very interesting.

    One possible effect here is that this will create a market for further third-party ROM hacking and development in order to provide customers with the features and functionality available from the updates they can no longer receive from Microsoft.  It will be interesting to see what sort of tools develop out of this situation.

    Regards,

    Aryeh Goretsky

  • @chetanmali have a look at

    forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php

    microsoft cant bring you a solution for your problem ;)

  • Some clarification, yea rough words but just the truth, microsoft is the one who is responsible for the unofficial updates. Nobody else

  • yea yea blabla...the unofficial way (the walshed way) where never happened if you put out updates like you promised on launch "everybody gets the same updates with no problems" *britney spears said*

    You are the one why users used an unofficial way to get fixes for their phone os with MANY bugs, even in main features like zune crashes, marketplace crashes, marketplace hangups and so on. I dont speak on the lack of features you promised to bring at "the beginning of 2011", i speak on serious bugs which can be fixed by you and get fixed for many people but not for all wp7 users.

    For your info, if you dont know, THERE ARE STILL USERS DIDNT GET THE PROMISED UPDATE!

    You are on the fault why people used unofficial ways, this whole situation would not be there if you had done what you promised -> bring out worry free updates.

    ONLY YOUR FAULT and nobody else

    rofl when i read

    "The mobile operators purchase Windows Phones from the manufacturers, and they are the ones who are authorized to flash phones for the mobile operator."

    So thanks for this, i am not allowed to flash my own phone? Better switch to apple, apple`s restrictions are realy bad but your restrictions are just a hard pain in my a**. When i read this i know i bought the wrong device....

    You just suck, you are the one who failed on the update process because you give a sh*t on your users!

  • @ Brandon Watson

    Why don't Microsoft releases the Original Firmwares atleast for Samsung Phones,

    Since I updated my Samsung Focus through Chevron Updated (i chose wrong Country and I regret that) My phone has become useless.

    I can't open phone, sms, maps, email applications as all these applications are crashing, did hard reset and used windows phone support tool but did not work.....

    I desperate to use my Samsung Focus with windows phone 7 (which I find better than iphone).

    Please get some solution as soon as possible or atleast release the Original Firmwares for Samsung Phones.

  • Leigh
    89 Posts

    Hi Brandon,

    Great post, informative, to the point, awesome as always.  I'm a fan.

    If I might address a point of order, you say that "{the 7392 update is} going out to phones via the official update mechanism", but the "Where's My Phone Update?" page has not been updated.

    Please be sure that we keep following the updated and more transparent NoDo update process, so that we know when we should expect the update to arrive on our carrier.

    On, by the way, it is now May and I'm still looking forward to my new Mango Dev tools this month ;)

    Thanks, and keep up the great work!

    Enjoy Windows Phone 7!

    -e

  • "The mobile operator store locations are not capable of flashing phones on-site with an original OS image, which means that you will most likely have to return to a store and submit your phone for a manufacturing return. However, because of this known error code, it is up to the mobile operators as to what they want to do with your phone."

    Is this likely to change?

  • moonman
    5 Posts

    Any comments on when Samsung owners can expect NoDo?

  • Based on what I've read, it appears that this problem might be carrier-dependent or OEM-dependent or both.  Some people claim to have used Chris Walsh's tool and still receive the 7392 update.  The Samsung Focus sounds like it may be having some trouble in this regard, but it is not universal.  Does the outcome depend on whether a carrier altered certain modules in the stock OS image?  Have you had time to evaluate whether some model/carrier combos are "safe?"

  • Quppa
    12 Posts

    Thanks for being open about this.

    For what it's worth, I used the unofficial update mechanism to get pre-NoDo and NoDo and managed to install 7392 without any trouble.

  • This is the best and most useful post you guys have done since you started talking about updates and for that I thank you. I used the tool from Chris Walsh to update my Omnia 7 and I understood the risks and have no regrets. I hope a fix is made available but if not then so be it.  I'll be looking for a Nokia device anyway later this year (yes despite all the update fiasco I love WP7 so much I would get another) but this time unbranded to avoid carrier "blocking" of updates.

    Wow, a Windows Phone 7 advert just came on the TV. :-)

    I would just like to repeat that unless you can find a way to limit the time that carriers can test then this situation will become worse with Mango. Carriers will be trying to sell handset upgrades, Nokia devices that come with Mango for example, instead of testing the updates for older devices.

  • @BrandonWatson I saw the Mix 11 presentation, I heard the 10 minutes about the update process (it was basically the same as an earlier blog post), and though the WP team have improved communication (a lot I may add congrats to the team) the issue of updates in a timely fashion still stands let me give you and example :-

    Before the HD7 I owned a HTC Desire bought SIM free and no carrier lock.

    I put my Three mobile SIM in it and went happily on my way.

    A colleague at work had a play and thought that's a nice phone I'm due an upgrade, so called Three and had a Desire sent to him, unknown to either of us two other members of the department ordered one on Orange and Vodaphone.

    August 1st rolled around last year and my Desire received it's Froyo update

    22 Aug 2010 Orange went live  with their release of Froyo

    23 Aug 2010 Vodaphone rolled it out  (there was an update prior to that but it added carrier crap)

    14 Oct 2010 Three released update

    as you can see there was a difference between manufacturer release and carrier releases, the most interesting one being Three the network I was happily using my updated Desire on for two months before my colleague received it! Since then my Desire has been on O2, Orange and Vodaphone with no problems experienced on any of their networks.

    My point? I had 3 weeks mocking the guys on Orange and Voda and two months the guy on the same network which wound them up no end, all because my non carrier certified software worked as expected. This was a fairly major update, Sense was updated, android updated introducing performance improvements and the sort of things that the tech savvy crave.

    Most of the current stock of WP7 owners are tech savvy (thus the # of walsh'd handsets, which though ultimately is the owners fault, it partly rests on MS with the rolling updates (I understand why you do it) but why should Samsung owners get it before HTC or LG owners on the same network, how different is the update on a non branded handset vs a branded one really?) and want to improve the capabilities of the handset they own. I know if I'd been able to pick up a HD7 unbranded on day of release here in the UK I would of just to of avoided the carrier induced waits which are inherent with carrier handsets.

    I see MS losing a lot of customer goodwill over updates and the problems arising (not walsh'd the Samsungs are having repeated problems), we as the end users can only hope that the update process improves enough and frequently enough to convince us to stay before either contracts and due and they move to competitors devices or for people like myself that nothing more appealing appears before the next round of updates.

  • "issuing the security update you just got".

    Ahhh. No. Still waiting. Thanks to MSFT and Telstra btw.

  • Well, thanks anyway for the explanation.

    However you should identify the reason that pushed consumers to use this tool. You know what i am talking about :D

    Keep it up, not everyone has alot of patience :) and many other vendors will be glad to take advantage.

  • Why can't you guys just have the carriers release the RUU with original shipped images? Problem solved.

  • Sheeds
    205 Posts

    Geez some people in this blog post just don't get it. Those of us that run the forced.update tool from Chris knew it was unsupported and that either means you are smart enough to know the risks - or dumb enough to know better next time.

    As Brandon has stated, MS have apologised and acknowledged the NoDo delays and hiccups - and taken strong steps to address the WP7 communities concerns - being more transparent and regular in their communications. Brandon even re-inforced the stated MS intention to keep resources focused on continual improvement on the update process.

    And with the absolute decline of WinMobile, and WP7 being a new <risky punt> starting from Zero - how exactly do you expect MS to negotiate 5 OEM partners with 10 (or whatever) launch devices to ALL bypass Telecommunication testing/approval for OS updates.  If I was running ATT or Telstra or Orange I would have laughed at them.  Would I prefer direct updates 100% - Of course.  My beef was the MS evasion on this questions.  That is all now done and dusted.  Can they improve the Hardware/Firmware/Update management with all the OEM's - absolutely, and they say they are working on it.

    Seriously - now you ragers just look like a bunch of <insert short word for male appendages>

    Get over it.

  • Frank yet sympathetic and informative. I love this post. It's pretty awesome that you guys are taking time out of your already busy schedule to try and fix an issue which wasn't your fault to begin with. For the record, I bricked my Focus using the Hungarian server "hack". Fortunately, ATT offered a replacement, but I knew I was at fault.

  • NiallG
    10 Posts

    @Brandon - Thanks for the acknowledgement/response (finally) - look forward to some actual information.  I can confirm that I was just able to successfully update to 7392 via Zune (on HTC Mozart handset updated to 7390 via Hungarian Proxy).   Note that my handset is an official 'unlocked' device (via Marketplace Developer program) - but I previously used the 'debranding' registry hack to allow for 7390 update.

    Unfortunately I have no real way of telling whether I have all the intended 'bits' of the 7390/7392 update now - as Microsoft, HTC and Telstra have all provided pretty much no low level information on what should/shouldn't be updated. (ie. I get that there is copy/paste, marketplace doesn't crash continuously and certificate updates - but what else should I be looking for - particularly along lines of HTC/Telstra specific tweaks).

  • roteague
    26 Posts

    Does this issue also affect those who had to use the Microsoft Support Tools just to install the first update? Seeing as how, the Walshie tool mostly makes calls into that tool.

  • Thanks for the post brandon.  :)

  • @NiallG

    Not ignoring, but trying to sort out the answer.  No one here has tried that method, so getting engineering resources to test and figure out what has happened takes time.

    @kendollmelb

    We do take responsibility for the problems.  If you saw the MIX Keynote (http://live.visitmix.com - the day 2 keynote) you will see that our VP spent almost 10 minutes apologizing and explaining how we are going to make things better.

  • NiallG
    10 Posts

    Brandon, I've asked you this question directly on twitter (which you completely ignored) - please take the time to answer it now as it impacts a lot of people..

    For people who updated their phones with Zune by temporarily pointing to the Hungarian servers - what is the situation there. (ie. phones which DID NOT USE the updater tool).  Will these devices be able to get the future updates correctly?

  • Kentrepid
    13 Posts

    Brandon,

    If Microsoft didn't have the useless and unnecessary step of carrier testing in the update process, then this situation wouldn't have occurred in the first place.  The same models of phone should not need to be tested by multiple carriers worldwide - it should be the job of MS or the OEM.

    Instead of continually bagging the people who tried to help your CONSUMER base out with getting an update to them within a month of the update being announced by Microsoft - perhaps you need to fix the actual problem of people only now receiving the update 6 weeks after Microsoft said it was available.

    The Windows Phone Bloggers (management) not only wear blinkers and refuse to respond or acknowledge the carrier update process is affecting Microsoft's reputation with this OS, but they also repeatedly bitch about anything that anyone does to try to help the end user - the people you actually want to buy the phones.

    Microsoft need to work out who's the most important in the chain of relationships - OEMs, Cariers, Developers or Consumers - once they work that out and prioritise accordingly, this platform might start making some in-roads to success.

    I have an Omnia 7 and whilst my phone updated to NoDo successfully, my partner's and my sister's Omnia 7s still have not due to the fact that NoDo has been pulled again for it.  This is the type of situation that makes people rethink their investment and begin the ground swell of discontent with the platform.

    Think about it Brandon.

  • Thanks for the update Brandon.

    @neilspartacus

    How is it Microsoft's fault?  I've Walshed my phone, and can't install the update.  It's my fault.  I knew what I was doing, and was aware of the risks just like everybody who used the tool.  Take a chill pill. :-)

  • @neilspartacus chill down... why on earth is MS responsible for an unoficial update via an unsupported tool?

    Do you understand how your frustation is blinding your thoughts?

  • Microsoft is responsible for "stuck" state of phones not Mr.Walsh. I don't want to get to the reasons why I believe this, because you should already know the frustration of customers who attempted to use Walsh's tool.

    I won't get "stuck" with this stupid phone which cannot get updates anymore (if this new fix from Mr.Walsh does not exist/won't work). I have money, so I will switch to Android or Apple (yes, its not the 90's and early 2000's with only Windows as a credible desktop OS). Agreed you would be least bothered about me spending my cash to switch...

    but what you should be worried about is I also have access to the Internet so does the good number of folks who used the "unofficial" means to get NoDo.

    I will spread the word via twitter/facbook/blogs and every other social media how much Microsoft sucks at delivering updates to the feature crippled WP7 and to not buy it and so will the entire customer base who are "stuck".

    Again its not the 90's, OEMs are not your customers, not anymore! You are already on the path to irrelevance by choosing the yearly update model and also sucking at delivery it.....so don't F*** with customers!!

  • It's been said, in fact, that the WP team was planning to use the same type of process to update phones to NoDo at MIX 11. Now all I ever see in blog posts is the bashing of Walsh (whether he is referred to by name or not). You should be thanking him for exposing the issue with your own internal tools.

  • The sooner the better.This whole shebang with Omnia 7 getting updates pulled constantly as annoying as NoDo at worst should have been the starting point for the OS. The released version is just too slow and not as feature rich. Even in NoDo panorama and pivot apps are choppy. The sooner everyone gets mango the sooner i can actually sell some phones without worrying about returns

  • wesdo
    4 Posts

    I love your honesty and the WP7 team should stay on this track. I "walshed" my phone and it won't update, but that's ok ;)

    It probably would require too much resources on your side, but I'd love to see some kind of beta channel for WP7, so we impatient enthusiasts get the new stuff faster. For that I'd be glad to provide feedback and accept data losses from time to time.

  • "The mobile operators purchase Windows Phones from the manufacturers, and they are the ones who are authorized to flash phones for the mobile operator."

    I bought this WP7 device, and I am very disappointed that I'm not 'authorized' to reflash it as needed without sending it back to the factory despite the fact that I own it. Would anyone buy a PC they couldn't reinstall the OS as needed? Mobile phones are for some reason getting the short stick when it comes to consumer rights, and I'm really tired of this being the status quo.

  • Sheeds
    205 Posts

    Chris Walsh is da man!  Love your work mate, keep it coming :)  Thanks Brandon - an excellent and timely explanatory post.  cheers.

  • Thank you for keeping the transparency going, Brandon.  Hopefully those who updated ahead of time will realize they were warned and not blame the team for not being able to predict how to update their unofficial upgrade.  As a happy Windows Phone user, I would rather the WP team spend time working with operators to improve the update process and timing with carriers than anything else, as the phones are amazing but the carriers... well... ;)