Windows 8 and the Windows Phone SDK, pt. 2

Windows 8 and the Windows Phone SDK, pt. 2

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Last month, I posted to let developers know that we were aware of some of the challenges that were present in running the Windows Phone SDK on the Consumer Preview of Windows 8. In that post I mentioned that we were working on addressing those problems. My colleague Cliff then followed up with the announcement of the release of the Windows Phone SDK 7.1.1 update, which does unblock the use of our SDK on Win 8, (although not officially supported).

Lots of people are digging into the new development platform opportunities provided by Windows 8, and we understand there are a lot of questions about what they may portend for Windows Phone developers. While we aren’t yet ready to talk about our future plans, we do believe there are certain things we can tell you. In fact, we’ve already talked quite a bit about this at the //BUILD conference last September (see our sessions recorded online at http://wpdev.ms/phoneatbuild).

With regard to existing applications: today’s Windows Phone applications and games will run on the next major version of Windows Phone. Driving application compatibility is a function of Microsoft’s commitment to its developers. Regardless of what we release in terms of new developer features and functionality, we have made a large investment in protecting your existing investments.

We’ve also heard some developers express concern about the long term future of Silverlight for Windows Phone. Please don’t panic; XAML and C#/VB.NET development in Windows 8 can be viewed as a direct evolution from today’s Silverlight. All of your managed programming skills are transferrable to building applications for Windows 8, and in many cases, much of your code will be transferrable as well. Note that when targeting a tablet vs. a phone, you do of course, need to design user experiences that are appropriately tailored to each device.

Microsoft is committed to creating an ecosystem that maximizes your investments. This is not an overnight endeavor, but we’re confident you’ll be pleased with where we’re going with the Windows Phone developer platform. As always, please let us know in the comments, or in our forums, if you have questions or concerns; we can’t answer every question just yet, but I hope we’ve dispelled some of your concerns.

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  • como posso começar a programar para o windows phone 8_? o que é necessario? me ajudem

  • Viegas
    1 Posts

    I'm a Brazilian folk, sorry for some English miss ;-)

    --

    Well, my concerns about W8 and WP8 are about Enterprise Development. I work at a Governmental Agency and, over there, we're focused on development of intranet applications as primary use.

    About this we are experiencing some "to back" from Microsoft (relatively to desktop OS). WP7 Mango have good integration with Outlook calendar, IMAP and the Office for WP7 is pretty good for a phone user to open his documents from email, for example. But, when we talk about development of apps to run only over intranet, on internal corporate wireless, it's a bit complicated.

    The way we're planning is to develop webapplications to run in IE9 for WP, so we can develop with .NET for both platforms (desktop [web] and phone/tablets). But I would like to explore all potential of the WP platform and the way the Apps works for a best user experience, what it's not quite possible (for now).

    WP7 don't allow we to make the Phone join a domain, what could be awesome, so our corporate phones (and tablets in the future), that we distribute to employees, could sync with AD (Active Directory) and apply all security directives and app configs automatically, including phone contacts, email, messenger contacts, etc. with a single account configuration.

    So we go to tablets, and we face the same challenge. We can't do a mass use of tablets on corporate environment (which is full Microsoft) cause MS have not make a OS for tablets with possibility of corporate integration (domain and AD). The way I see this be real, in a short future, is using Windows 8 on tablets.

    To finish, deployment of apps for WP7 are all made through Marketplace. Our corporate apps can't be deployed through Marketplace, cause they'll run only on our environment. Microsoft could make a way to deploy apps internally for corporate users, as well software packages, like Visual Studio, with WP development licenses to be distributed among internal developers to build, test, debug (on the device) and deploy, not forcing every corporate developer to create an account on AppHub to do that, cause it's not the focus to deploy worldwide apps or get money with them.

    Apple and Google don't focus on Corporate, Microsoft always made it very well. I think that philosophy can and must be integrated with the philosophy of UI targeted to final user extreme and simplified experience, in WP8.

    Regards.

  • dwn
    1 Posts

    Why does this post not note that WPEmulator works on Windows 8, but not for true Windows 8 C++ WinRt development? This kind of harkens to my gripe with MS development: that it needlessly creates a web of confusion for developers - not in it's product line necessarily, but at least in its releases and documentation.

    That said, I am very happy with VC++2011beta, the Metro approach in general (it actually simplifies things, to my mind, which is a very good thing), the unified architecting MS has done, and all the options it provides to developers. I am happy to leave behind other libraries and architectures for the monolithic solution if Windows/Microsoft products/DirectX are not intentionally abusing their customers. This "slow-motion trainwreck" looks to me like things coming together in a more sensible way. It seems to truly pave the way for NOT having to worry about rewriting so much code in the future.

    There are minor peculiarities of the included W8 programs and features that baffle me, because it requires that I leave the comfort of the full-screen Metro "experience" for the desktop; e.g., right-clicking in IE offers no "Save as.." option, opening WMP pushes an ad in one's face instead of returning them to their last song list, it takes too much work to view the clock, etc. - but overall, nice work! Thanks for the great free OS and dev tools, and thanks for keeping us up to date, Larry and Cliff.

  • ozkar
    2 Posts

    But they have not reason to create a XNA for windows 8 remember that the XNA was made mainly for XBOX 360 and remember that the xbox only support directX9 -10, and xna is directx9 managed, they will need release a new xbox to have purpose to create a new XNA  for both platforms even the new windows phone release know as "APOLLO"

    and windows 8 and windows phone, is just starting, they need a maximum of 1-2 years after they release, then have api's, that works correctly.

    Personally seeing from customer field of view. its a little late comparate with apple and they're, mac os and ios

  • now you see the times is about to shif a console is comming

    www.theverge.com/.../top-three-things-tim-cook-was-most-likely-doing-at-valves

    my calc is right , if u can understand it..

    it was a verry simpel version, you allso need to take the day where the product was started on the market and look at the stars, where are in time , and sub from the result, it eleminate the 500 days

    so you can predict the new product in a shorter time frame, tim cook know the iphone is running out of time

    and the ipad is just started,, now he will try to hook the consumer on to the mac

    and we all know how this is done ,, with games

    ask me any thing ,, i will give a taste of somthing else

    spectrum.ieee.org/.../0

    you have probly heard of this , but the research is wrong ,,

    in order to power it up, thay have to use the fulid inside the eye,, my sugstrion why

    becourse if you have 2 cops of water can connect them together with a simple wire and put a voltmeter in between

    you get 1.5 volts

    www.youtube.com/watch

    if you drop a wire in canada on one in brasile in the ocean put a power station in between you get 1 billion volt

    endles enegy here , i will post some demo later this years

    now back to the reserach , put in my little calc

    and you will find out there reserach is possible in 2022

    back to the apple is prepare the shift in times

    Michael , do not trust me , just call me an idiot , and do check this out

    come back later in 2012 and you will see i was right

  • but now you have closet the comments, and that is good

    course when you start to close factory in mexico and othere places and move to china

    do you think that the hardware will work in these phones when thay come out of these factorys

    the campain says it all , do not afend an asian , thay pull you down

  • a direct link

    timesofindia.indiatimes.com/.../12620894.cms

    thay are just wating for a chanse to kill your company ,

    and starting pulling all the makers together

  • ooo yerrraaa

    the fight between you has begun

    www.wpcentral.com/nokias-marketing-campaign-india-unethical-according-samsung

    read onn ,, all the way to the bottom

  • did you know that the earth quake in japan shifted the earth rotation 2.9 degrees the last rotation of a total 13.9 degrees wicth take place in a piriod of 26000 years

    so what comes ifter this ,, i cood tell you , but you properly think i am an idiot ,

    then the universe start to expand again, for a bit of time,,

    and when this happen , more hurycanes,storms and earhquake will come , as you have seen if we go back 2 days from now , the conternal plade in the earth are moving a bit

    not to vorry ,, it is all normal

    i really hope you do the right thing microsoft , i can only show you the way ,

    i can not interfear with you YET

    and yes i am an idiot, rember this and pull these post foward again in december 2012

    and start reading again,and again,,

  • the time less point is one hour at the galatic alignment

    Michael

  • and now i am a total idiot or not..

    wacth this

    the mayaian calender 26000 years

    more law every 3 years

    the time of the stars when you start selling the xbox 360 9 years a go

    the year now is distance time and space 2012

    here is the simple formular redused... you can use it on every thing that has to to with technology

    26000 / 2012 = a clock cylce of 12,9 years the life time of the xbox 360

    - more law

    = 9,9 years + a margin of the distance to sun converted into the mayan calander of 500 days

    more or les , swap buffer of 500 days

    xbox start 2005 + 9,9 years  = wicth the end of xbox 360 is 2014

    try this on the day the iphone wend on sale , and you will see the shift in time is 2016

    try in on the android phones and you will see the shift in time is 2019

    try this on the moon landing back in time , and you will see the next moon landing was in 1973, the proff is here

    and a small corection to einstein the fumular time IS NOT ENDLES

    IT make a round a clock of 26000 years , convert in to space time

    and the fumular is right , now we can move true a astroid field correct , wicth was not possible to day

    www.time.com/.../0,8599,2094665,00.html

    and here

    www.nytimes.com/.../30iht-eddas30.html

    you see the universe expands and collaps again , bring us closer to the time less and far away from time less

    i have nown this for manny years now, but i do not think the public is ready yet for somthing to show

    call me and idiot or what ever ,, but rember we are the one who change the world

  • Larry Lieberman and Cliff Simpkins it is not going werry well for windows phone

    www.theverge.com/.../nokia-q1-2012-financial-outlook-adjustment

    and again it get slammed in the press , when will you learn

    www.washingtonpost.com/.../gIQAQ352tS_story.html

    and you know why developers stay away , at least the great developers, course of this it is all over the web

    mashable.com/.../windows-phone-apps-microsoft-incentives

    we some of us has invested dollars in your platform and years of creating stuff all the way back to 2007

    and then you frezz the marketplace in agust 2011

    and all the ranks was drop down , mine personaly from 17 to 2000 and never got back up

    it this like takeing ativement and game score point from a game ,, try this on xbox live and see what happen

    so i ges you took somthing away from a lot of developers, back then

    you are starting to pump millions of dollars out , but not selling any thing

    so we have put a system in place ,, go a head,, start the add campain and we will give a lot of webhits

    so it all look good on your statics , and people are saying the right stuff on windows phone , all paid for..

    if you whant the #great deal to roll , and sell phones,tablets

    all you have to do is this

    make a press statement , and show it action, and let the public get the download

    UPGRADE XNA AND LET US MAKE GAMES FOR THE TABLET IN XNA,

    AND WE ARE ALLOW TO SELL OUR STUFF IN WINDOWS STORE ALL OVER THE WORLD

    you know 23000 webhits only cost 5 dollars, a dead cheap way giviing you the belive that the times is right to

    start off windows phone , and this goes back to september 2011

    and i know you can not comment on this , and you think i am an idiot,,

    but i am verry clever, so clever that we can make the house of cards fall for a round 25.000 dollars

    any company,, and this is perfect legaly

    and one hand you compete with apple,google

    but then again in the othere hand you are not,, all about using the media to get you spooked and mix up

    so you starting fighting,,

    and this happen when apple not selling as manny phones as thay was supose to do

    and you are not selling any phones

    at the end it is all about this

    #great deal,, that is all the young generation understand, in all universety all over the world

    but you do not sems to get it ,, do you

    so the system is put in place, and you lose

    THE DANISH SPRING IS COMMING,, OR

    UPGRADE XNA AND LET US MAKE GAMES FOR THE TABLET IN XNA,

    AND WE ARE ALLOW TO SELL OUR STUFF IN WINDOWS STORE ALL OVER THE WORLD

    custom shaders,true hardware float point, low level audio

    and a proper dev kit that reflect the year 2012

    like the mobile 6.5 platform, where we had acess to this stuff

    you all know it dosent really matter whant games are make it , all that matters that is running on a platform

    the media will grow unstable...

    Michael

  • @Stevie - keep the passion coming. :)

  • i think we all windows phone lovers , can help out here

    a data fix for the lumia 900

    wmpoweruser.com/how-to-fix-the-nokia-lumia-900s-data-problem-at-least-temporarily

    i hope that is it not manny people that has this problem

    please share this , so people are getting happy with there new device

    Michael

  • Planning for future developments on Microsoft's platforms is currently extremely difficult. The fact that there is nearly no statement on Silverlight is driving people nuts when it comes to Intranet Applications on the Desktop - problem being that in it's current state HTML5 is far from a valid alternative.

    From the little I read into the matter it seems to be pretty much the same with XNA. There is no WinRT-based version so it will only run in Win8-Desktop-Mode. Don't know if there are any news considering it's use for the XBox.

    So it got pretty quiet around the two development Frameworks used in WP7. No matter how often you ask people from Microsoft (wether on the Net or in person) you get near zero information on the matter. Of course that leads to people listening to rumors and questioning what motivation there can be to not tell developers what features will be coming.

    I totally understand that MSFT does not want to show it's competitors which new features will come to the system itself but currently no one is able to plan their Apps like they are able to on competing platforms.

    It is a similar story concerning the issue of wether there will be an update and for which devices.

    I really like the tools and the platform as a whole but it is really hard not to doubt it's future considering that we know little more than: "there will be a next major version of Windows Phone which will run todays Apps" which is kind of a frustrating situation.

    I also know that sometimes we all might be reading to much into certain statements (as I guess happened with the whole skipping one update and updates from Microsoft thing which people didn't understand as cumulative updates but rather a policy statement).

    @Cliff: I guess you have your reasons for the current information policy but I guess it is still necessary to let you know how we feel about the situation. Keep up the amazing work on WP but I hope you can understand where we commenters stand.

  • @Cliff - thanks for your replies. I appreciate your comments. As a developer of 5 windows phone apps, I eagerly await more information on windows phone 8, and Microsoft's efforts to make cross development of windows phone and windows 8 easier. When I first started attempting to port one of my apps, an app that makes use of low level sockets, to windows 8, I first tried having a two way port, sharing code between the two versions of the app.

    I quickly found that this was an impractical solution at best. It's true a good amount of code can be shared, but the non-trivial code was generally not portable. That included most of the networking code. So, at this point, it's easier just to maintain two versions of the app, with little if any code sharing. So I welcome any changes that make it easier to share more code between windows 8 and windows phone.

    Now, XNA has been mentioned a couple of times, but I noticed that officially we've only received confirmation that existing XNA applications will still run on windows phone 8. I hope that Microsoft can officially comment on XNA's future with regards to the new programming models to come. If you are deprecating XNA in the future, I don't see why we can't learn about it now so we can plan accordingly. If you do deprecate it, I hope you'll consider open sourcing it. This would make it easier for projects like ANX to port a version of XNA to run on top of WinRT and whatever the programming model will be on windows phone 8.

  • @Michael because one brand is having an issues you declare wp7 a beta?  That seems silly, my htc has been as solid as a rock.  I'm really excited to see we're wp goes.

  • Cliff Simpkins thanks for the reply pehaps i am over blowing it , then i hope u understand

    regrads to the 90mb , read msdn it is only 60mb if you go over the pageing start and will slow down

    and i still meen the stuff about games target the hardware not the memory

    and please upgrade the dev platform to reflect the year of 2012 compared to the othere platforms

    custom shaders,low level audio support, and true hardware float point of vector math like the samples from ARM and qualcomm

    i have tested this out FFT CALC on a 256x256 bitmaps not complex numers, but only float point numbers

    all phones the same spec

    iphone old one 1ghz (800mhz cpu) 1.2 millisecond

    android HTC 1ghz 1.8 millisecond

    windows phone HTC Trophy 1ghz 10 miliseconds

    use seimark to run the test your self, google this proformance sample ,

    and please let us traget the new lumia 700,800,900 phones

    Michael

  • Larry Lieberman

    proff of a windows phone is a beta product

    wmpoweruser.com/some-nokia-lumia-900-handsets-having-connectivity-issues

    nokia lumia not working,, allso the sound in my radio stops after 3 hour of play have to hard reset the phone to get it to work

    and when i have play my game between 3 to 7 times , the sound is messup.. so there is a driver problem

    so i can see why when somone walk in the store at AT&T and thay put an iphone in the hand of the costmer

    instead of an windows phone

    wmpoweruser.com/att-store-reps-still-turning-away-prospective-windows-phone-buyers

    Larry Lieberman  can you not see there is somthing wrong here

    the phone is based on use case ,, like the smoked by windows phone it based on use case

    the rest of the phone does not work,, an people have see this all the way back in 2010

    i really hope you will fix all these issue before you put a product on the market

    then the windows phone will not get slammed like this

    and this is what not shood happen , well let put some hits on the ads

    Michael

  • ...I have my cup of coffee on this beautiful Monday morning in Redmond, and thought I'd wade in a bit... :)

    @Chance - I believe you're letting a few different topics collide there.

    - I agree that Xbox is a great consumer achievement, but it definitely was not a hit overnight. In a world of 24 hour news, I know it's hard to give someone some time, but I believe we are doing pretty well in a come-from-far-behind race.

    - For VS11, let DevDiv get their product out of beta before declaring it DoA.

    - Regarding Silverlight - I really like the Silverlight programming model, and it's a style that continues to evolve. From WPF to Silverlight and now to 'back' XAML, I believe we continue to see the technology continue to evolve into something better. Shawn Wildermuth wrote a pretty decent blog post on this topic today about Silverlight/XAML/Win8. While branding may evolve, the XAML + C#/VB.net programming style continues to be alive and well, and the best way to get maximum code reuse among Microsoft platforms today and into the future.

    @Michael Hansen - I don't believe Larry intended to comment much on Windows 8 at all except to say we're fans of the innovation coming out of the team, and XAML + C#/VB.net is the best way to achieve maximum code reuse (folks are reporting 80-90% business logic) when building an app to target both platforms. Otherwise, I believe he's restressing the point we made last fall about our continued support for today's apps and today's code to ally concerns and fears we've heard around folks fearing that their skills and might not carry forward on the WP platform.

    Also, to your comments around XBL (Xbox Live), it is a great and differntiating service, providing top-tier game developers with access to the XBL services such as leaderboards and XBL achievements, but it is not a prerequisite for being successful on the platform. There are a number of independent game devs that have been successful on WP without using XBL, making very decent money and continuing to be independent, or joining XBL with a follow-up title. Catalin Zima-Zegreanu, XNA MVP and author of Chickens Can Dream and Chickens Can't fly, is an excellent example here. For those publishers/game devs who aren't XBL partners, there are other back-end gaming service providers that service the WP platform (e.g., Exit Games), and we're working to expand our partner offerings on an ongoing basis.

    And, lastly, we're not ready to comment on future releases of Windows Phone. That being said, I believe that you're dramatically overblowing the fragmentation issue by assuming rumors flying about the interwebz are fact, making a few assumptions based on what Windows is doing, as well as focusing on the lower memory devices that have been recently released to expand the reach of the platform - devices which have a pretty good opt-out model for games requiring more than 90 MB of memory. Compared to some other platforms, I believe the team is doing a great job at avoiding a fragmentation story that others are struggling mightily with at the moment - a good part of that because we have a great design team that is putting the consumer first, with a UI that is buttery-smooth on both our 512 MB phones as well as the newer 256 MB devices for those that need the lower price point. And the team went through great pains to help ensure that the customer experience on the lower-memory phones doesn't feel like a lower-memory experience...and having used a 610 for a couple weeks, I have to say they did a damn good job on it. :)

    @Leigh - Thanks; and I'll pass along your posting problems to the IE team. :)

  • Leigh
    89 Posts

    Just to mention it, I did have a problem posting my comment on the Win 8 Metro IE10.   Worked okay on the desktop version.  Forward to the Win 8/IE10 team, will ya?  I'm sure they are working on it.

  • Leigh
    89 Posts

    I'm sure I, and many of the people reading this Blog can come up with quite a few positive articles written about Windows Phone, Nokia, and Microsoft.   Microsoft has had its share of problems connecting to the public, but the public is changing its opinion beginning with XBox, continuing to Kinect, and on to Windows Phone 7.

    BTW, I'm up and running on the Consumer Preview with both VS 2011 beta and Visual Studio 2010 Express for Windows Phone/SDK 7.1.1.   Everything works as it has been documented there, so the gentleman having problems has something wrong with his system .. nothing more.

    We do need slick Marketing that that's what I'm waiting for next, as ads like #SmokedByWindowsPhone hit the air.   As MS just brought on a new Ad exec, I expect they are coming soon, and you'll see more people make the swtich.

    If you're concerned about MS execs leaving the platform, they are not leaving the platform, but going on to other things.  Brandon Watson specifically said that he wasn't staying forever when he joined Microsoft.  Read his blog at manyniches.  Charlie Kindel left to do something he couldn't do at Microsoft -- start a company.  Neither move had anything to do with failures of the platform or Microsoft.  Read his comments about his departure.

    Blogs and Tech sites write doom and gloom about MS and Windows for exactly two types of people.

    o The ones that don't care for MS or its products, so they can get more web hits

    o The ones that do love MS and its products so they can get more web hits.

    Money is the reason you'll find one Blog or tech site with any slant you would like -- or wouldn't.  It has to do with bucks, not reality.

    Windows Phone x will be huge.  Windows 8 will be huge.  You heard it here first, er, second, third?

    Thanks for having an open mind and reading more than one tech site.

  • all this is great news , but wait a minute

    when microsoft starts to sell windows phone 8, somthing bad happen

    you see as of today from a developer point of view

    you can not develop and target the device nokia 710,800,900

    you can only target 256mb devices and 512 mb devices

    but 512mb devices include the old 2010 phones wicth are slow compared to the new 512mb devices nokia 710,800,900,htc titan,htc radar

    and you can target the new nokia 610 low end phones, but there is only room a round 60mb in memory for your game,, so it kill most 3d games with great graphics

    and when windows 8 phones hit the market, you will not enable to target the device

    course it all so have to run on the old phones(wicth are the new on today) wicth are upgrated as microsoft says

    and with the lack of game developerment platform compared to iphone and android phones ,

    custom shaders, true hardware float point , and some othere stuff

    it is a dead end,

    and that is what the media it talking about , the verge, wmpoweruser,wpcentral and most of the tech site on the web

    windows phone is missing all the great games with great graphics

    so we all have to wait 3 years for windows 9 phones to see some change

    this is the clock cycle where microsoft shift os and upgraed the platform

    so when windows phone 8 is here it will look like this

    target 1gb phones  = windows 8 phones

    target 512mb phones = windows 7 upgrated phones to windows 8

    target 256mb phones = windows 7 , no upgrade to windwos 8

    and all this is wrong,, a mistake

    let target the hardware spec instead,, as of now the windows phone have

    old            2010 phones = 1ghz

    new          2012 phones 1.4ghz

    low end 2012 phones 800 mhz,,

    so we can make great games and make windows phone shine..

    Larry Lieberman , can you not see the problem ,, compare to android or iphone

    thay target there dev kit at the hardware not the memory as you do

    and thay sell phones , millions of them

    do you not see the problem ,, create a hero device, based on hardware and people will buy them

    you have a

    windows design team

    windows enginer team

    windows marketing team

    and you are not working together , all can see it

    it is the design team the ruuls in your company,, the phones are based on use case

    it is a beta product you are putting out on the market, you are 2 years behind the otheres

    and it is the design team to blame

    we all know graet games sell phones,

    look at the android or the iphone tahy must be doing somthing right , course thay sell million of phones

    based on hardware..

    HER IS MY FEEDBACK YOU ASK FOR IN 3 MAILS NOW

    BUT I DO NOT LIKE AN OTHERE COMPANY COLLECTING THE FEEDBACK..

    NO ONE DOES THAT,, YOUR COMPANY HAS THE SIZE TO COLLECT THESE THINGS YOUR SELF

    Michael

  • lertulo and you all you are not getting it Micosoft confuse you split up the platform

    so that xboxlive games can contunie to dominate there devices

    and releaseing even more free xboxlive games for the phone, small developers can not compete with the brand

    so thay stay away from this platform,

    if you are planing to do a game , it takes a round 6 month to do a real game , and you can not get on the xboxlive , course you have not won any rewards from the othere platforms, you will fail only selected games from iphone and android phone can be xboxlive games and microsoft pick and chose them

    so you have to move to anothere platform, and hope you games get notice by microsoft and then you have the sels and your xbox live game

    and the same will happen with the tablets,, so move a long folks it is your only chanse of make it

    Michael

  • all this is great news Larry Lieberman , you are the man

    is i get , plase respond if i am wrong here

    xna and silverlight will contunie to work on windows phone 7. and future versions 8,9 and so on

    regards to the tablets , xna will not work , but silverlight will , and if our stuff are made in xna we can not sell our stuff in the windows store,

    if we whant to make games we can only use c++ directx 11 on the tablets

    if we whant to make metro apps(no support for directx ) we can use C#/VB.NET on the tablet

    so i ges the dev tools runs xna on windows 8 tablets with keyboard, but we can not use it for games on windows 8 tablets

    i think this is great news , way to go,, xna is old , and new times is comming , better platform

    best regards

    Michael

  • @lertulo - Perhaps what you mean is that you can't open WP7 projects in VS11? If so that makes sense since that is something that's not supported in the VS11 Beta. But you should be able to open WP7 projects in VS2010.

  • Chance
    2 Posts

    @Leigh - I truly wish that your optimism was gounded in reality, but that's just not the case.  Ours were not the only posts referencing what another referred to as the 'slow-motion trainwreck' ongoing in Redmond, as similar observations have been posted via multiple venues by, at minimum, tens of thousands of highly technical individuals, technology and business analysts and a steady strem of extemely talented Microsoft employees who've fled the absurdity ongoing in Redmond, among them some of those who were instrumental in the ascension of Silverlight and left with no reason to stay.  Is Azure failing?  The numbers say yes.  VS11 Beta?  A disaster, already.  The mishandling of SIlverlight?  A debacle from which Redmond will never recover.  Office 365?  Yawn.  Metro?  While some like it in limited scenarios, few would staunchly claim that it's as widely applicable as MS insists be the case.  These remain the wost economic circumstances of a lifetime - few company's that have just recently upgraded to Windows 7 will have any motivation to upgrade to Windows 8, yet those who need develop for what will continue to be the MS enterprise platform continue to be royally screwed and for what?  A misguided consumer play that has epic fail written all over it - with the exception of the XBox (those responsible for its success were punished and abandoned much like those that made Silverlight Redmond's crowning achivement), MS has an abysmal track record in the consumer space.  Evidence that's about to change?  None.  And last of all, despite all that I invested in, believed in and pushed for Windows Phone - as an outgrowth of Silverlight ascension as an almighty cross-platform runtime (Windows, Mac, WP, XBox, etc) - we can ill-afford continuing to heep our heads buried in the sand: www.businessinsider.com/the-really-scary-thing-about-the-bad-reviews-for-microsofts-super-phone-2012-4

  • @lertulo. I'm using Win8CP and WP7 SDK right now on my laptop. And everything except the phone emulator works just fine...reinstall SDK

  • Leigh
    89 Posts

    @Chance and @lertulo:  You guys are totally wrong.  Where do you get these imaginative notions?  @Chance: Windows Phone is growing, if you look at WP7 which is what counts.  WE EXPECT WP6 to shrink.  If you look at the possibility (probaby understated) of 2.0% of the market, that's a good 4-5M phones, up quite a bit from the estimates uinsg the Facebook app that were done earlier. Even including that WP6 which we don't need anyway, is shrinking.   No, it isn't Androld's 50% (which isn't one version of the O/S by the way, it is more than a dozen), and iOS 30% or so.   However, I think we'll see a decent increase as Nokia gets back into the US Market full force.  I also believe we'll see new phones across all the carriers, which will press WP7 more into the mainstream.

    @Chance there are some people who don't like Metro, most of them want to turn it off, but there are quite a few techies who understand that the fusion of tablet and desktop is very well done in Win8.   I think when you see great Windows Intel and WOA machines coming out, quite a few people who wanted a tablet to run Windows programs will buy them instead of the other guys.  It isn't a surprise that the apps for iPad and Android that the most popular are ones that let users use Windows.  And they will be able to use Windows on Windows 8 without buying anything else!

    @lertulo We are not thowing away .NET.  WinRT uess .NET 4.5.  Read the docs. And  If you can't open your projects on WinCP8, submit a ticket.  Larry just said it will work, so there must be a problem with your machine.  You should probably look at the dependencies you have on there and try to figure it out, or submit the problem where someone can help.  

    And BEST OF CES is not good enough for you?  Mediocre?  That statement boggles my mind.

    -Enjoy Windows Phone 7 and 8, and Windows 8.   These are exciting times.

  • lertulo
    1 Posts

    I'm an ex-Microsoft developer, a long-time user of WP7 and author of several apps and games for Windows and Windows Phone.  And I'm utterly horrified at this slow-motion train wreck that I'm seeing unfold from Microsoft.

    First there's WinRT--throwing away .NET as if it won't have any impact on software availability.  Then there's the lack of XNA support for Win8 coming from the left hand, while the right hand is still telling us XNA is still the right way to do visual-intensive apps on WP7.  Then there's the inexplicable incompatibilities between Win8CP and the WP dev tools--which *still* don't work together, in case you hadn't noticed, despite these blog posts to the contrary.

    At present, I am utterly unable even to open my WP7 projects on my development machine, much less to fix bugs, add features or submit new WP apps.  And I'm not sure why I should be bothering, given that Microsoft is systematically throwing away single toolkit that they've told us for years we should be learning.  No wonder developers flock to iPhone and Andriod, where at least the runtimes have long-term commitment and the tools continue to work with the OS.

  • Chance
    2 Posts

    It's not enough that Windows Phone is already failing, Nokia's efforts having so far done little to turn the tide, given reviews of their latest phone efforts are mediocre at best, but forcing the entire platform down the WinRT path simply guarantees that both Windows Phone and Windows 8 will both fail to a degree that makes the Vista debacle pale in comparison.  WinRT remains pitiful imitation of all that Silverlight became in record time, while Metro continues to get poor reviews, is ill-suited to productivity applications and the desktop overall - pretty amazing, really, how Microsoft could so quickly go from FIVE back-to-back releases of its greatest achievement of all time - SILVERLIGHT - to a pipeline replete with present and future failure: Azure (dying), Windows Phone (on life support) and WinRT/Windows 8 (DBA, dead before arrival), etc, etc, etc.  Amazingly sad and time for a massive purge in Redmond...

  • yeah its great that my skills are  transferable to win8  and all but I hate to say it that that simply isn't good enough. I also have huge investments in Silverlight apps and code and this needs to transfer too.

    Its really hard to sell this investment to customers with all these rumors floating, and you only willing to say that my skill set is preserved is only fuel onto that. The fact is that there is no good alternative to Silverlight, and its an awesome solution for distribution LOB apps, but the experience on win8 is horrible at best. And it doesn't help that the blend team is ignoring us with a final v5, and sl5 is so buggy it needs 100% DEET but we don't see any GDRs any longer.

    saying WinRT is an evolution of SL might be true from a dev language perspective, but it's apples and oranges when it comes to the solutions and use cases they are useful for.

  • Any hint on when we will learn more on the next major version of Windows Phone? Last year we first heard about it during MWC and then learned more about it during MIX. This year MWC was all about Windows 8 and there won't be a MIX conference.

    Because currently everything points towards a bigger change in the development model, although the old App model will still be there for compatibility. This becomes an extremly interesting Question considering the now new 256 MB devices. Will those get support for the new version, will existing devices support the next major version? Will we have to maintain separate codebases?

    There's so many questions - when will we know more?

  • Curious about game dev on Win8 and WP8: XNA won't work for WinRT, will there be a XNA-like library(as i heard) or will the work be done in DirectX directly?

  • What about Silverlight in general? We have already invested quite a bit in Silverlight application on Windows7 targeting IE and Chrome browser. We haven't heard much news on Silverlight support on desktop.

  • DjiXas
    46 Posts

    If Windows Phone Tango has already RTMed, why don't you ship it to unlocked devices?

  • Although I understand you probably already have the future dev story for win phone 8 fairly well planned out, and that you can't yet tall about it, I'd still like to share my ideal vision.

    First, I would like to be able to use the same WinRT API on the phone as on the desktop/tablet. Of course, I would still design the app specifically for the phone, but I don't see why the core API, XAML stack, managed/native/javascript interop capabilities couldn't be shared. I see two ways to go about this. The easy way would be to have a "profile" so to speak of winrt for the phone that might include extra phone specific controls. You would publish the app separately from the win8 app.

    A better way would be to have the ability to use the same binary on win8 and the phone. When run on the phone, it would be activated in a special phone app mode/view in a similar way to how snap view, share charm UI, and file picker modes work. The phone mode would just be another one of these modes. Implementing the "windows phone" view makes your app visible on the phone marketplace. You could also somehow mark different versions of your app resources/assemblies/etc to be specific to the phone or desktop, so for example you might have high red desktop assets and low red phone assets, and the marketplace would only download the assets for your device to save download size.

    While we're talking about profiles or special modes, just thought id throw out this quick suggestion: have a special winrt desktop mode that the user can switch in and put of. This would make it possible to have a single app that has optimized modes for desktop keyboard and mouse (uses multiple floating non full screen windows), touch (full screen metro style), and windows phone. This would have the added benefit of allowing third party desktop apps on WOA that were optimized for low power consumption and distributed through the store for easy install/uninstall.

  • @limitedmage - While not explicitly called out, XNA is very much a part of Larry's statement 'today's Windows Phone applications and games will run on the next major version of Windows Phone.' XNA is fully supported in the next major version and remains part of the Windows Phone family. We remain committed to supporting our developers' existing skills and code as we move ahead - together.

  • What about game developers which have already invested heavily in C# and XNA for Windows Phone? XNA development is not supported for Metro-style apps in the Windows 8 Consumer Preview; will it ever be supported or will developers have to move to DirectX and C++?